The Simplicity of the Gospel in One Word

[Jedidiah]

From the above conclusion, we can understand the mysteries that Paul is talking about in his epistles.

The mystery that Paul talks about is the bringing together all things under Christ. There was never any question in my mind that "God created ALL things through Jesus Christ."

If one does not know how to relate the gospel into the above conclusion, then he understands nothing of the truth of the gospel.

But again, "Can you explain in clear simple language what you see that 'the true gospel is all about?'" What is the truth of the gospel that you are proclaiming?

[footwasher]

Ok, if it will please you I want to do it.

A basically good summation of what has occurred thus far. Because frankly I am waning in energy over this thread I was trying to escape without further confrontation, but I think that I still have a case that can be made from Scripture.

We both know what repentance is, so let's define the Kingdom of Heaven, and what I mean by God is with us, for the first, St. Paul says in Romans 14:17

"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating or drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

The context is in Paul's teaching on the clearness of foods but not being a stumbling block to those who think something's are unclean, but we can either use that or perhaps we can use a more eschatological definition about the resurrection of the dead, which very we'll be what you're getting at. Please respond so we may continue on that point, or suggest another meaning.

As for God being with us, it does not show strongly in the Gospels to be what was preached by the disciples in such words, (depending on the definition of the Kingdom of Heaven) but as such it would appear I made a faulty assertion.

Perhaps an unstated assumption on my part is that God with us can have many meanings, and I think I may have been vague and you have the right to be unhappy with my hermeneutic since I've barely shown any work. My primary source for this doctrine is the repeated idea best summarized by Ezekiel 36:22-38 which I believe will be fulfilled in Revelation 21:1-8. When a Biblical text makes reference to being righteous, I read into that to refer to repentance in all cases except that of God himself.

(I hope that doesn't appear scattered; I am not always the best at communicating ideas.)

[Pentecost]

Thank you footwasher for helping me, this is not a topic I frequently express my views on and I've never been challenged on it, so many verses did not immediately spring to mind other than some of my personal favorites.

Also, do you practice footwashing as an ordinance?

[Paprika]

Ok, if it will please you I want to do it.

A basically good summation of what has occurred thus far. Because frankly I am waning in energy over this thread I was trying to escape without further confrontation, but I think that I still have a case that can be made from Scripture.

Really, there's no need to do this if you don't want to..

We both know what repentance is, so let's define the kingdom of Heaven, and what I mean by God is with us, for the first, St. Paul says in Romans 14:17

"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating or drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

The context is in Paul's teaching on the clearness of foods but not being a stumbling block to those who think something's are unclean, but we can either use that or perhaps we can use a more eschatological definition about the resurrection of the dead, which very we'll be what you're getting at. Please respond so we may continue on that point, or suggest another meaning.

I think we can start with the kingdom of God as God's rule being brought to bear on earth eg "Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth.."

Perhaps an unstated assumption on my part is that God with us can have many meanings, and I think I may have been vague and you have the right to be unhappy with my hermeneutic since I've barely shown any work. My primary source for this doctrine is the repeated idea best summarized by Ezekiel 36:22-38 which I believe will be fulfilled in Revelation 21:1-8. When a Biblical text makes reference to being righteous, I read into that to refer to repentance in all cases except that of God himself.

Yes, "with" is rather vague without more careful explication. I do think that one aspect of the gospel narratives is the picking up of the OT promises that YHWH will return to Zion, to his Temple, and saying that this has happened in Jesus of Nazareth, and with the sending of the Spirit in a complicated double-fulfilment: that would be God "with us" in a very strong sense. My point is that the gospel is not reducible without much distortion to "God with us": a kingdom implies a king, and Jesus has been enthroned, has inaugurated* God's kingdom.

With regards to Paul's view, it is of course valuable but we have to keep in mind that most of the gospels happens before the kingdom inauguration, and Jesus and John the Baptist's description here are thus forward looking "the Kingdom of God is at hand". Paul on the other hand, is looking at what is already a reality around him. We can actually compare the proclamation of the kingdom in the Gospels to that in Acts, and we soon notice something in the latter: a very strong focus on the crucifixion and resurrection (eg Acts 2). But here, as always, you cannot talk of a kingdom without a king, and so we can approach the kingdom from another perspective: What sort of kingdom? What sort of King? For that the natural passages would be the parables (the kingdom of God is like a...) as well as Mark 10:35-41 (and parallels) and John 18:33-38.

*Yes, in view of the eschatological tension this needs to be more carefully worked out but I'll leave it as it is for now.

[FarEastBird]

Guys, I felt it needed to put in a post of what I understand of the gospel. This is not complete, but I am hoping that it will be helpful to understand our differences. I will not make a detailed explanation, but I am quite confident you knew some of these things.


The gospel is about the coming of the kingdom of God. The kingdom that is being spoken of is the Church that is founded in Christ and the apostles. This Church/Kingdom is actually the heavenly Church vision shown to Moses by which he patterned the Temple of Israel. The rules and pattern mentioned in the law of Moses is a reflection of what the heavenly Kingdom/Church would become of. Thus, Christ, being the lamb offered for the sin of the all partakers of the temple, was offered in Passover. There are other animals offered according to the rules of the Temple, so Christ is not the only one appointed to die. Paul himself said, "we are accounted as sheep for slaughter." (Rom 8:36) He also said, "For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men." (1Cor 4:9)


So, basically, what is being preached about the kingdom of God is that it is totally a work of God. The kingdom is basically patterned after the heavenly Temple seen of Moses. The Kingdom's, or Church's, leadership is patterned after the temple laws. So, the twelve apostles did not gain their office by their will, but were appointed, rather than had merited their position. The Seventy disciples, and also of the seven that were elected in Acts 6:3, were all patterned after the temple laws. These things are being done and unfolded in the kingdom of God for to show that God is doing all things according to his purpose in Christ. Paul said, " hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." (Eph 2:6-7) From these demonstrations is where the concept of predestination is drawn. Those who will become part of the kingdom did not become partakers because of their will, but the kingdom of God is already existing in the mind of God, which He created when he built the Church founded on Christ and the apostles.


The rejection of Israel of Christ is God's work (Matt 21:42). As well as of the coming of the Gentile nation is God's work (Acts 15:14-18). The cessation of leadership of those gathered in Christ (Rev 20:6, Dan 7:21, Rev 11:7, 2Kings 23:27, Isa 49:5), and of the prophesies regarding the coming Gentile nation(Isa 65:1-2, Mal 1:11, Deut 32:21, Isa 11:10, Isa 56:8, Isa 55:5), are aimed to demonstrate that both the fall of Israel and of the rising of the Gentile nation are God's work. So, thus, through this demonstration of the gospel of the kingdom, we are being given knowledge and understanding that the make up of the kingdom, as well as of the state of individuals in the kingdom, are all the works of God, centered on his purpose of instating Christ as the kingdom's King and High Priest. People who are not aware about the mysteries of the kingdom of God, had no knowledge of the truth of the gospel, and, consequently, have no knowledge of the godhead being demonstrated through the gospel.

[footwasher]

Thank you footwasher for helping me, this is not a topic I frequently express my views on and I've never been challenged on it, so many verses did not immediately spring to mind other than some of my personal favorites.

Also, do you practice footwashing as an ordinance?

It's clear that words wash.

John 15:3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Ephesians 5: 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansingb her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

But yes, I did wash feet at a recent ordination.

I might even have some photographs of myself doing just that.

Glad you found the proofs that the Gospel is the announcement of the arrival of the Kingdom of God, the sighting of the real rest, abiding in Christ, resting from one's own efforts, entering that Land where we drink from wells others have dug, eat of the fruit from trees others have planted... helpful.

[dacristoy]

The Gospel is the good news of the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ as our savior. Everything else is just a subset of this revelation... Just keeping it pointedly and simple...

[Paprika]

The Gospel is the good news of the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ as our savior. Everything else is just a subset of this revelation... Just keeping it pointedly and simple...

Wrong. For one, the birth is hardly essential to it: Mark's story self-describes as euangelion but doesn't include any birth narratives.

[FarEastBird]

The gospel is not about having faith? Have you need read Romans?


"5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. " Romans 5:1-2

What you are saying does not reveal the godhead. Simply read what Paul said of the gospel:

For therein(referring of the gospel, verse 16) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Rom 1:17

Are all those things you are talking about reveals the righteousness of God? No.


Paul also said:

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them(referring of the gospel, verse 16); for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:19

Are all those things you are talking about manifest things that which may be known of God? No.


If you knew the gospel, it will reveal to you the righteousness of God, and of the things which may be known of God.


Where did Paul learned of the salvation of God through Predestination? Do you know why salvation is through grace? Do you know why that through the fall of the Jews salvation came to the gentiles? You cannot know the answer of the truth to those question without knowing the gospel. All doctrines of faith were demonstrated through the gospel. The death, burial, and ressurrection of God, is bringing us a message, and demonstration, of the godhead. So the gospel is not simply about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. There is a message that is being demonstrated about the story of Christ; and that message is the gospel! So even if one hears the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, if such person cant discern the message, then he does not know the gospel. Thus why Paul said, that he did not receive the gospel through man(Gal 1:11-12). And Paul explained in his epistle that there is something that people need to understand about the gospel for them to know God (2Cor 4:3-6). The gospel is the message that the people need to understand of the disciples preaching.

I do not know what you're talking about. Are you denying the Trinity because humans cannot comprehend it?

Yes. Because our God is not the author of confusion.

Are you saying you only are saved if you perfectly understand it?

Just saying it for the sake of argument. One needs to know with clarity what the godhead is, as said in John 17:3. I know, for sure, that you do not understand the Trinity. Or, if you truly do, then I will submit that I am lost.


My point in this is more about sincerity in my heart. And that we do not need to go into detail about the arguments.

In as non-offensive way as you can take this you seem illiterate, or heretical. I'd like to assume the first but you seem to think me a heretic too.

If you truly are a learned person You should know what I am talking about. Don't you know any atheist arguing about the coherence of the trinity? And of the reasons why you, Trinitarians, admit the Trinity as a mystery? I believe the Roman Catholic condemns those who claim to have "explained" the Trinity.

What do you think the godhead is? Can you tell me or do I have to guess? Or are you so concerned with being vague that it will have to wait until divine revelation?

If you know the gospel, you would have known the godhead. It was very clear in the verses I quoted that you can know God through the gospel of Christ. Let me give the verse so you wont have any excuse to say you did not see it.

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them(speaking of the gospel);....." (Rom 1:19)

I have no further point to detail to you the godhead because it already shows through this thread that you do not know the gospel. You err in knowing the gospel, so you also fail to understand the godhead; for, as Paul said, that which may be know of God is manifested in the gospel.

So the entire gospel boils down to knowing the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth created everything?


I disagree.

No, it is the Father who created ALL things through Christ. If you know what the gospel is about, you would not claim such.





Sincerely, I cannot agree or disagree with you about things we do not have same knowledge of.


The whole gospel is where we get the reasoning, and the demonstration, of the salvation of God through Christ. Kindly, read post # 65 so you may know our differences.

[dacristoy]

Wrong. For one, the birth is hardly essential to it: Mark's story self-describes as euangelion but doesn't include any birth narratives.

Beg to disagree... The virgin birth of Christ is absolutely essential to the good news of the gospel..

[Paprika]

Beg to disagree... The virgin birth of Christ is absolutely essential to the good news of the gospel..

Asserted, not shown.

[dacristoy]

Asserted, not shown.

What can be done with eyes that do not see, ears that do not hear...

[FarEastBird]

But again, "Can you explain in clear simple language what you see that 'the true gospel is all about?'" What is the truth of the gospel that you are proclaiming?

The gospel is explaining the salvation of God. One has to understand the explanations of our salvation thru the words of the gospel; not just hear it by the ear, or see it by the eyes. Do you know why the gospel is about the mystery of the kingdom of God? Of what reason the kingdom of God is a mystery? Did the kingdom of God came? How? What do Christ have to do with the kingdom of God? What the apostles have to do with the kingdom of God? What does the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ have to do with the kingdom of God? All these questions will guide us to know the truth of the salvation of God.

See, Jedidiah, how that Peter explains baptism through the story of the flood (1Pet 3:21), and while Paul explains baptism through the death and resurrection of Christ (Col 2:12, Rom 6:3-6). See also how Paul explains salvation through the story of Jacob and Esau, through the story of Abraham, through the story of Moses and Pharaoh, and through prophecies. The mystery of the kingdom of God will explain more clearly to us that salvation of God. If one does not know what the kingdom of God is, how can he even claim to know its mysteries?

Paul said, "Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:" (1Cor 2:6) So, repeating the words that is preached by the apostles in the gospel, does not make anyone know the gospel. The apostles are speaking of wisdom, not just merely declaring words.




But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal 1:8

.

[Paprika]

What can be done with eyes that do not see, ears that do not hear...

Look: you have offered no reason why the birth of Christ is essential to the gospel. Evading this by claiming your opponent is blind doesn't cut it.

[Teallaura]

Look: you have offered no reason why the birth of Christ is essential to the gospel. Evading this by claiming your opponent is blind doesn't cut it.

Side question: What are you meaning by 'essential'? Something necessary to know for salvation or something necessary to the doctrine?