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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI don't understand your question about second best.
I think that we live in a fallen world and God allows evil to occur as a consequence of the fall and our own evil actions. But it all works according to his ultimate plan which is the redemption of his creation.
My view is more of a Molinist. So that God is in control of everything, but he creates a world where our free will actions are the ones he wants us to make. So while God did create the world where the terrorists did attack New York, it was their free will choice to do so and they are responsible for it.
"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)
"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostThe "God brought this calamity" (sickness, disease, tragic accident, or judgement) on us/them is a boat load of crap from the pit of hell.
God DOES NOT bring calamity on us....he's NOT judging us for our sins and natural disasters are NOT "acts of God"...Do bad things happen to good people...even Godly people...oh sure! Absolutely, but "God did it" is not the answer.The verses you keep quoting are (as OBP has already pointed out) spoken to a specific people at a specific time about a specific event. You keep trying to change it to a general statement separating it from it's original intent to it's original audience to make it say what you want it to say...The verses you keep quoting were curses under the Old Law to the Israelites.
Look through the New Testament and find where Jesus put sickness on one single person.
"For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number asleep.
But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostAs in it would have been better if evil had not happened.
So then God has to compromise with evil? That is, that God must put up with a certain amount of evil which detracts from God's best.
But I note that you are not quoting Scripture to support this view! Please interact with these verses:
"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)
"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)
Blessings,
Lee
Here is a good basic article: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...and-free-will/
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo then God has to compromise with evil? That is, that God must put up with a certain amount of evil which detracts from God's best.
If he wanted to, he could eliminate all evil with one word. Unfortunately that would include us, as we are the authors of most of the evil in the world. He instead uses forebearance to allow evil to continue for a time until all is accomplished and then he will make it all right.
Read up on molinism. It is a view that seeks to reconcile calvinism with arminianism.
"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)
"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, if God has to compromise with evil, and we get second-best, then how is it that all things work together for good for those who love God? If sin can do real damage, that we (and God) have to compromise with.
So then sin doesn't win at all? I agree. But we can't have it both ways, where sin wins sometimes, and sin doesn't win at all.
I am familiar with the basics of molinism, but I am asking you to comment on Scripture based on your view, and give me the Molinist view here if you wish.
"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)
"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)
Blessings,
Lee
Look Lee, the logical conclusion to your view is that God is evil. Because only someone evil would do evil things, right? And if God is in control and does evil then how can he be good?
So God commanded the terrorists to commit 911 and murder 4,000 people, many of them his own people, good Christians, and start a war that killed many more? How is that not God doing evil?
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As an Orthodox Preterist, I see Revelation as mostly the final judgement on Israel and the Old Covenant which happened in A.D. 70 for rejecting Christ.
Job is in the Old Testament (Testament = Covenant) right?
Well you're begging the question. Explain why God MUST make general statements at all?
What about the calamities that befell Job?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostHe is sovereign and he created the world where the evil was allowed to happen by his permissive will.
"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)
"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" (Lamentations 3:37)
This is more than just permissive will.
Look Lee, the logical conclusion to your view is that God is evil. Because only someone evil would do evil things, right? And if God is in control and does evil then how can he be good?
So God commanded the terrorists to commit 911 and murder 4,000 people, many of them his own people, good Christians, and start a war that killed many more? How is that not God doing evil?"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostAs an Orthodox Preterist, I see Revelation as mostly the final judgement on Israel and the Old Covenant which happened in A.D. 70 for rejecting Christ.
Job is in the Old Testament (Testament = Covenant) right?
Well you're begging the question. Explain why God MUST make general statements at all?
Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?Job did not sin with his lipsSo, God lowered the protective fence around Job and satan is allowed to afflict him.I think there's a difference in not respecting the person of Jesus Christ when you are supposed to be a Christian than general sin.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostQuote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
So then God has to compromise with evil? That is, that God must put up with a certain amount of evil which detracts from God's best.
He doesn't HAVE to, Lee. He chooses to by extending us grace.
Well, if God has to compromise with evil, and we get second-best, then how is it that all things work together for good for those who love God? If sin can do real damage, that we (and God) have to compromise with.
Until you are willing to engage, and learn and actually wrestle with the word of God (hint: if you aren't learning new things and your theology stays the same / you always focus on the same things -- you probably aren't actually being transformed through God's word -- but that's just my opinion based on experience)
I am saying this to hopefully have you consider to start to actually engage with others (and be willing to shift your perspective on a few things if the evidence so leads you).
What does NOT suffice as evidence is:
1. Straw man arguments
2. Re-Stating the Same Argument after it has been dealt with (then asking people to deal with it)
3. Not reading and engaging with what other's have actually written
Granted, IMHO, Calvinism stakes it claim by taking things out of context,, building straw man arguments, creating false dichotomies and a whole host of other fallacies.....so I guess it shouldn't surprise me when people who uphold the theology engage that way in pretty much everything else....
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Originally posted by phat8594 View Post1. Straw man arguments
2. Re-Stating the Same Argument after it has been dealt with (then asking people to deal with it)
3. Not reading and engaging with what other's have actually written
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBut that doesn't suit these verses:
"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos 3:6)
"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it
You have turned God into an evil maniac who thinks he will do good by doing evil.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo you believe that the ends justify the means then? That God actively does evil to get a good result?
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occurIf that is the case, how can he judge anyone for sinning, since they had to do it because God commanded it?Last edited by lee_merrill; 12-15-2018, 02:22 PM."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostNo, God does not take a compromising route to a good end. But God does include evil as part of his plan, as in the cross.
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostGod cannot do evil Lee.
God's plan includes evil in that he expected it and allowed it to happen.
"The text says, 'You meant evil against me.' Evil is a feminine singular noun. Then it says, 'God meant it for good.' The word 'it' is a feminine singular suffix that can only agree with the antecedent feminine singular noun, 'evil.' And the verb 'meant' is the same past tense in both cases. You meant evil against me in the past, as you were doing it. And God meant that very evil, not as evil, but as good in the past as you were doing it. And to make this perfectly clear, Psalm 105:17 says about Joseph's coming to Egypt, '[God] sent a man before them, Joseph, who was sold as a slave.' God sent him. God did not find him there owing to evil choices, and then try to make something good come of it. Therefore this text stands as a kind of paradigm for how to understand the evil will of man within the sovereign will of God." (John Piper)
God does include evil as part of his plan, as in the cross.
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occurLast edited by lee_merrill; 12-15-2018, 03:04 PM."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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