Originally posted by Chuckles
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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Jesus didn't want to save everyone?
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Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostWe're not rejecting the words of the Bible. We're rejecting your ignorant interpretation of those words. In this passage, God commands Isaiah to tell the people that they are dull and slow-witted. It's a warning.
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Originally posted by Chuckles View PostA warning? "He has blinded their eyes" is a warning that they should not blind their eyes? Can you please explain, plain and simple, why the agents are being described as completely passive while "He" is the only active part. Who is acting in the text? Can you explain that please because what you have been saying so far is not in line with what the text says.
The real irony here is that you are the exact sort of person being described in this passage.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostWe're not rejecting the words of the Bible. We're rejecting your ignorant interpretation of those words. In this passage, God commands Isaiah to tell the people that they are dull and slow-witted. It's a warning:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
John, 12, 38 - 40
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI already told you, skippy, metaphorical language. "My brother made my friend angry!" Why is my friend described as a passive agent? Did my brother override his freewill? Did Isaiah override the freewill of the Israelite people with his warning and force them to have dull hearts, heavy ears, and blinded eyes?
The real irony here is that you are the exact sort of person being described in this passage.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe real irony here is that you are the exact sort of person being described in this passage.
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Originally posted by Chuckles View PostYou should read what the Bible also says:
So they could not believe because their eyes had been blinded, their hearts had been hardened and so on... Read the book.
"37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled..."
In other words, the evidence was right there in front of their faces, but they refused to believe. That's on them, bro.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostContext, Chuckles... we keep telling you to look at the context. If you back up one verse in John, it says:
"37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled..."
In other words, the evidence was right there in front of their faces, but they refused to believe. That's on them, bro.
"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
So, once again, you have tried to make the text say something it clearly does not say and we are none the wiser. Your talk about "context" is completely misunderstood in this situation since it does nothing to change what I pointed to.Last edited by Charles; 01-26-2018, 02:58 PM.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostThe text does not say they refused to believe. Read the text. It clearly says they could not believe. And the reason given is certainly not that they refused, the reason given is:
"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
So, once again, you have tried to make the text say something it clearly does not say and we are none the wiser. Your talk about "context" is completely misunderstood in this situation since it does nothing to change what I pointed to.
42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him.
How did they believe in him if God made them so they could not believe? Hmm?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd then in
42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him.
How did they believe in him if God made them so they could not believe? Hmm?
"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
Either verse 42 contradicts this or perhaps it only goes for some of them that they are unable to believe? Hard to say. Anyway the text clearly says "they could not believe" and the reason given is "because that Esaias said..."Last edited by Charles; 01-26-2018, 03:24 PM.
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Originally posted by Chuckles View PostThe text does not say they refused to believe. Read the text. It clearly says they could not believe.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostWrong again, Chuckles. Verse 37 says they did not, not that they could not. It was active refusal on their part. We can infer from verse 39, then, that the fact they couldn't believe was a consequence of their active refusal to accept the evidence that was right in front of them: "Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him..."
The part you point to says they "did not". It says nothing about refusal. Absolutely nothing at all. There could be many reasons they did not believe. And reading on we see what the reason is. The reason is they could not. Again, this is actually what the Bible says. You cannot infer active refusal by the sheer fact that they did not believe. The blind man did not see the bird. That is not because he refused to see it. See the point? It seems you are the one who refuses to see what the Bible says.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostI pointed to this part: "Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again," How hard is it to see it says "they could not"?
The part you point to says they "did not". It says nothing about refusal. Absolutely nothing at all. There could be many reasons they did not believe. And reading on we see what the reason is. The reason is they could not. Again, this is actually what the Bible says.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostThe text is very plain, indeed, they could not believe, free will was not at work.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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