Originally posted by Jedidiah
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Lying for the sake of life
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I remember a talk by Paul Kurtz on situational ethics. He gives an example of a friend in the hospital, and the doctor comes to you and tells you "there is no hope, he is going to die". You go into your friend's room, and your friend asks "what did the doctor say". "In that case", says Kurtz, "clearly I would lie".
You would not have to lie, you could simply say something like, "he's not very optimistic, but doctors have been wrong before". You are under no obligation to pass on what the doctor said to you in a personal conversation.
(in Kurtz' example, I don't really see a doctor being that openly negative to a non-family member, but that was his illustration)The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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All this is true, but I do not see lying to save an innocent life as sinful. Saving a life is not evil.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostAll this is true, but I do not see lying to save an innocent life as sinful. Saving a life is not evil.
But I believe we will never be put in the place of having to choose between sins, otherwise 1 Cor. 10:13 would not be true, there would be temptations with no way of escape.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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"Some said it thundered" (John 12:29). So indeed it's not God's will to correct us of every false notion, even about what he has said or done. You raise some good points! What is a lie? What is it that God cannot do?
"If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth." (1 Jn 1:6)
So one lie is a false claim to fellowship with God.
"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ." (1 Jn 2:22)
So the quintessential lie is to deny that Jesus is the Christ, to deny what is true.
"No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless." (Re 14:5)
So I think we know what lying is, it's speaking what is not true, and that is what is forbidden.
"Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator." (Col 3:9-10)
How were his words not a lie, if a lie is defined by the objective truth value of the words themselves?
Agreed.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Luke 14:5 comes to mind here. Under the Old Covenant, it was generally sinful to work on the Sabbath. However, Jesus indicated that in an emergency situation, the natural thing to do would be to make an exception. The same could be said about other actions that are normally sins."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostLuke 14:5 comes to mind here. Under the Old Covenant, it was generally sinful to work on the Sabbath. However, Jesus indicated that in an emergency situation, the natural thing to do would be to make an exception. The same could be said about other actions that are normally sins.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBut we shouldn't be thinking we can commit adultery in an emergency! Transgressing the moral law is a sin, though the ceremonial law may be set aside as needed...
Blessings,
Lee"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostObviously there are probably no circumstances when adultery could be committed."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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I think killing/murder is probably a better test case. The case of Jael and Sisera in Judges (where Jael tricks Sisera into a tent under the guise of hospitality where she drives a tent stake through his head) would normally be considered cold blooded murder but there were extenuating circumstances here. This also has relevance for the discussion on lying because she was somewhat deceptive in how she went about it. The text even says that God subdued the Canaanites through this action so it was clearly justified."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI think killing/murder is probably a better test case. The case of Jael and Sisera in Judges (where Jael tricks Sisera into a tent under the guise of hospitality where she drives a tent stake through his head) would normally be considered cold blooded murder but there were extenuating circumstances here. This also has relevance for the discussion on lying because she was somewhat deceptive in how she went about it. The text even says that God subdued the Canaanites through this action so it was clearly justified.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI remember a talk by Paul Kurtz on situational ethics. He gives an example of a friend in the hospital, and the doctor comes to you and tells you "there is no hope, he is going to die". You go into your friend's room, and your friend asks "what did the doctor say". "In that case", says Kurtz, "clearly I would lie".
You would not have to lie, you could simply say something like, "he's not very optimistic, but doctors have been wrong before". You are under no obligation to pass on what the doctor said to you in a personal conversation.
(in Kurtz' example, I don't really see a doctor being that openly negative to a non-family member, but that was his illustration)
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