Originally posted by RBerman
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Determinism & Paul
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostDepends on what you mean by "God's will," an ambiguous term as has been discussed upthread. If you are talking about God's commands, then no, God did not command David to break the Ten Commandments. If you are talking about God's sovereign control of all things, then if God had intended to disallow David from breaking the commandments, David would not have done so.
I have a very orthodox opinion on this observance but I'm very interested in collecting other views...
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Originally posted by phat8594 View PostThe problem of course isn't the Law, but our flesh. How can something that is fleshly uphold something that is spiritual? (Answer it can't) -- thus our need for Christ and the Holy Spirit.Last edited by apostoli; 03-07-2014, 07:54 PM.
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Originally posted by RBerman View Post...which includes inciting David to take a wicked census (2 Sam 24) and then sending a plague as punishment.Last edited by apostoli; 03-07-2014, 08:10 PM.
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostEvery philosophical/theological construct somehow attempts to explain how and why an omnipotent God allows sin and suffering rather than preventing it.
One common suggestion is something like, "God loves human free will more than he loves an absence of sin, so he tolerates sin." That seems at least as problematic as the problem you identify, in which God ordains to do that which he forbids, and then punishes them for it. Certainly the Bible never speaks of God having high esteem for human free will; quite to the contrary, the Bible emphasizes the damage wrought by human autonomy.The reality of the situation is that we don't understand how God thinks or why He does all the things He does, so we just have to go with what He has said in Scripture that He has done, which includes inciting David to take a wicked census (2 Sam 24) and then sending a plague as punishment.
Can you show me the scriptures where God incites David to take a census,
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostA fair comment. However, given David was possibly the most despicable person known to the Abrahamic religions, how was it that he was chosen as God's elect and the precursor (prototype) of Christ? I have a very orthodox opinion on this observance but I'm very interested in collecting other views...
Originally posted by apostoli View PostMy spin on this is that Israel was punished because the people set David above God. That is: David viewed his victories as the result of his own prowess, rather than God's support/protection. Thus in one part of scripture we read the Devil caused the vexation, and another that God caused the vexation. Simple reconciliation: God gave David his head (to use a horseman's terminology) and David faltered...revealing his vanity...and the vanity of his subjects...
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Originally posted by dacristoy View PostNot discussing why God allows sin, but rather why he deterministically causes it to happen.
Human autonomy, according to you, that monkey does not exist.
If we cannot understand how God thinks, then your basis for denying free will goes out the window.
The reality of the situation is that we don't understand how God thinks or why He does all the things He does, so we just have to go with what He has said in Scripture that He has done, which includes inciting David to take a wicked census (2 Sam 24) and then sending a plague as punishment.
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostMy spin on this is that Israel was punished because the people set David above God. That is: David viewed his victories as the result of his own prowess, rather than God's support/protection. Thus in one part of scripture we read the Devil caused the vexation, and another that God caused the vexation. Simple reconciliation: God gave David his head (to use a horseman's terminology) and David faltered...revealing his vanity...and the vanity of his subjects...
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostIf you are suggesting that the law of Moses was less than holy, then you are incorrect.
Were Moses' Ordinances aimed at holiness? That's a different question. But the obvious Biblical fact is they were a huge failure!!! Largely ignored from the time of Joshua until the intervention of Ezra. What else could you expect from a man who was an absolute failure himself (hence his prohibition from entering the promised land) and had so little respect for God's commandments that he smashed them to pieces and implemented his own Taliban type will!!!!
Do you well to read what scripture actually tells us rather that parrot Sunday school fantasies and platitudes...
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostI don't share your view that David was "the most despicable person," nor would that pose some moral quandary if he were. He was a great man, in both good and evil things.
Originally posted by RBerman View Post"God incited David" sounds substantially more active than "God gave David his head."
Imu, under USA law there is a thing called the Miranda defense, where if you are set up you can't be tried...So to my mind for God to have incited David, David was setup and God is found corrupt...not to mention neither omnipotent nor omniscient nor prescient...Last edited by apostoli; 03-08-2014, 01:47 AM.
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Originally posted by dacristoy View PostI just reread 2 Sam 23 & 24. Trying to understand why God was so angry with Israel, the scriptures apparently do not tell us that. Just in 24 verse 1 God expresses his sore displeasure, not with David, but with Israel. Hard chapters for me to understand...
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Originally posted by dacristoy View PostI just reread 2 Sam 23 & 24. Trying to understand why God was so angry with Israel, the scriptures apparently do not tell us that. Just in 24 verse 1 God expresses his sore displeasure, not with David, but with Israel. Hard chapters for me to understand...
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostI can't recollect from scripture a single good thing that David might have done, apart from causing the riddance of Saul.
"God incited David" sounds substantially more active than "God gave David his head."
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