Saved

[Sparko]

I have things from several pages back to try to catch up on later. For now, I'll note that I apparently have a significantly different understanding of "eternal life" than several participants in this thread. I do not take it primarily as "that future state of existence awaiting believers," but as "that metaphysical quantity which enters a person consequent to 'faith' and causes that person to be 'born again' and indwelt by the Spirit of life," and which is then carried on to that future existence."

That is part of it. Why would God give you his Holy Spirit and listen to your prayers, etc, if he knows you are just going to quit believing next year? Would he bother? why? He knows what you are going to do even if you don't.

[Obsidian]

For now, I'll note that I apparently have a significantly different understanding of "eternal life" than several participants in this thread. I do not take it primarily as "that future state of existence awaiting believers," but as "that metaphysical quantity which enters a person consequent to 'faith' and causes that person to be 'born again' and indwelt by the Spirit of life," and which is then carried on to that future existence."

I'm not sure what you mean by this, or why it would relate to conditional security.

[NorrinRadd]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, or why it would relate to conditional security.

Because it relates to things people are saying in the thread. Some seem to view "eternal life" as something future, that we receive after we physically die. I don't know how common this view is, but it is not common among the Evangelicals and Pentecostals among whom I have spent most of my 36 years as a believer.

[NorrinRadd]

That is part of it. Why would God give you his Holy Spirit and listen to your prayers, etc, if he knows you are just going to quit believing next year? Would he bother? why? He knows what you are going to do even if you don't.

Why did He tell Adam and Eve to not eat the Fruit, since He knew they would do it? Why was the Tree of Life in the Garden, since He knew He would eventually have to place a cherub to prevent access to it?

[Obsidian]

Because it relates to things people are saying in the thread. Some seem to view "eternal life" as something future, that we receive after we physically die.

The people saying that here are the ones who think that eternal life can be lost before you die. If eternal lie cannot be lost, then believers have it even now.

[NorrinRadd]

The people saying that here are the ones who think that eternal life can be lost before you die. If eternal lie cannot be lost, then believers have it even now.

And it is my view that believers can and do have it now, and can potentially choose to cast it aside. It is, in my understanding, the animating force that distinguishes believers from unbelievers. It is within us because the Spirit is in us. If at some point we choose to reject Christ, we leave the Covenant and the Spirit no longer resides within us. We return to our prior "dead" state, and in my understanding, such a choice is irrevocable in that such a person cannot be renewed again to repentance, and that there is no point in even praying for one who has committed this "sin unto death."

[Obsidian]

So, what was the person ever saved from?

[37818]

Everyone is different, but if he/she was primed like those on Pentecost, I might just repeat Peter's words in Acts 2. I could use Paul's words to unbelievers if they fit.

Fine. You still have not answered the question. I will ask it again, wording the question differenty, If you were to explain to someone how to be saved and know for sure that when death comes, one would go to heaven to be with the Lord Jesus Christ, what would you actually explain?

[NorrinRadd]

So, what was the person ever saved from?

I'm not positive you're addressing me, or whether this is just a general question. Since your post immediately follows mine, I'll assume the former.

The question prompted an interesting little quick survey of the NT. AFAICT, there are only a few verses that directly specify what we are saved "from":

Matt. 1:21 -- Our sins.

Acts 2:40 -- This perverse generation.

Rom. 5:9 -- The wrath of God.

James 5:20 -- Death of our souls.

Matt. 18:11 (if genuine) and Luke 19:10 -- Implicitly, from the state of being "lost."


Those citations use the specific word, "sozo."

The word, "rhuomai" seems to be similar, and in fact is used in parallel to sozo in several places.


Col. 1:13 -- The domain / dominion / authority of darkness

1 Thes. 1:10 -- The wrath to come


Those are the ones that seem most relevant to the question. Of course both words are used many other times, e.g. for being "saved" (healed) from sickness, "delivered" or "rescued" from temporal danger, etc.


Now... Is there some point to your question that advances the discussion?

[NorrinRadd]

but you aren't given a car. Eternal life isn't sitting there in your driveway. Nobody actually gets eternal life until we are resurrected. Until then we are mortals. We are promised eternal life. If you can give that up, then the promise is meaningless. If you think you will one day be immortal and live forever with God, but in reality two months from now you will turn away from the faith, then your current belief is wrong, isn't it? You will not be living eternally with God. You are wrong. Therefore even though you think you will be living forever with God and are saved, you aren't. You are damned. Your salvation is held hostage by your future self.

We have fundamentally different understandings of "eternal life," as noted elsewhere in the thread. I understand it to be that vivifying energy or power that animates the believer from the moment he "receives" and "believes" and is "born from above" by the Spirit. So it is not a "promise" it is a present possession. I can trust God to not withdraw the gift, but I retain freedom to cast it aside.

Jesus says no one can snatch us from his father's hand. That means not even our idiotic future selves.

That is possible, and it is a virtually unanimous understanding of the passage among OSAS folks. To me it seems a totally unnatural reading of the passage.

If we are actually forgiven and saved then that means we are saved from all past and future sins. If give up our salvation, then we are not forgiven of anything, are we, because we will one day pay for all of our sins. So your current "salvation" is fake if you do give up your salvation at a future time.

Why? If I'm an engineer and change careers and become a writer, that doesn't mean my time as an engineer was "fake." If I'm married and get divorced, that doesn't mean my marriage was "fake."

Our salvation doesn't depend on us. It depends on Jesus and the Father. If they have forgiven us of our sins, then we are forgiven. We can't turn around and say "well I have decided I don't want to be forgiven afterall" - it is done, finished.

Our salvation does not "depend" on us in the sense that we must scratch and claw and struggle to hold on to it. But neither is it imposed on us.

one more thing. Those who say you can lose your salvation seem to think that "well God is not going to force you to be saved if you don't want to be"

But the way I see it is that he is not forcing you to do anything. He is protecting you from being wrong.

Let's say you stop believing a week before you die. Then there you are standing before God and he says "Surprise!"

Are you going to say "Bah! I dont want to be saved"
or will you say, "Oh God! I was so wrong to turn away. Please take me and save me! I didn't mean to lose my faith!"

I think God will say, "You were always saved. No one can snatch you from my hand."

Not, "Oops, sorry, I know you were faithful for 50 years, but last week you changed your mind, so off to hell you go!"

Your view sees us as perpetual infants and chattel. I do agree that God would impose (so to speak) salvation on those Xians that are immature in the faith, or who suffer from intellectual or emotional afflictions that do not allow them to make legitimate choices; if one such denounced God in a fit of pique, I believe He would overlook it. But I also believe those who have known and experienced Him for some time are treated as being mature enough to have their decisions honored.

[Obsidian]

Now... Is there some point to your question that advances the discussion?

If the person winds up in hell, in precisely what way was he saved from the wrath of God?

[bling]

but you aren't given a car. Eternal life isn't sitting there in your driveway. Nobody actually gets eternal life until we are resurrected. Until then we are mortals. We are promised eternal life. If you can give that up, then the promise is meaningless. If you think you will one day be immortal and live forever with God, but in reality two months from now you will turn away from the faith, then your current belief is wrong, isn't it? You will not be living eternally with God. You are wrong. Therefore even though you think you will be living forever with God and are saved, you aren't. You are damned. Your salvation is held hostage by your future self.

Jesus says no one can snatch us from his father's hand. That means not even our idiotic future selves. If we are actually forgiven and saved then that means we are saved from all past and future sins. If give up our salvation, then we are not forgiven of anything, are we, because we will one day pay for all of our sins. So your current "salvation" is fake if you do give up your salvation at a future time.

Our salvation doesn't depend on us. It depends on Jesus and the Father. If they have forgiven us of our sins, then we are forgiven. We can't turn around and say "well I have decided I don't want to be forgiven afterall" - it is done, finished.

Eternal life is spoken of as something the Christian take possession of at their conversion, but looking at the way the Bible describes this possession, it conveys the idea of an inheritance we get later:

Jude 1: 20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.we might become heirs having the hope of eternal lifewhoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

[bling]

Fine. You still have not answered the question. I will ask it again, wording the question differenty, If you were to explain to someone how to be saved and know for sure that when death comes, one would go to heaven to be with the Lord Jesus Christ, what would you actually explain?

Eternal life is spoken of as something the Christian take possession of at their conversion, but looking at the way the Bible describes this possession, it conveys the idea of an inheritance we get later:

1 John 5 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

Jude 1: 20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21

Jude is obviously writing to Christians, but describes them as waiting for Christ to bring them to eternal life.

Jesus suggests they do not have eternal life yet: John 6: 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal lifebenefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.might become heirs having the hope of eternal life

[Obsidian]

If you get a real Bible version, it doesn't include the word "you." And in the very next verse, it makes clear that we need to keep ourselves "in the love of God" so that we can spread eternal life to other people, not to ourselves:

Jude 1:21-23
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

[NorrinRadd]

If you get a real Bible version, it doesn't include the word "you." And in the very next verse, it makes clear that we need to keep ourselves "in the love of God" so that we can spread eternal life to other people, not to ourselves:

Jude 1:21-23
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

What version do you consider "real"? I checked about a dozen, including several notably "literal" ones, and all included "you" or "ye."