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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by NorrinRaddFor now, I'll note that I apparently have a significantly different understanding of "eternal life" than several participants in this thread. I do not take it primarily as "that future state of existence awaiting believers," but as "that metaphysical quantity which enters a person consequent to 'faith' and causes that person to be 'born again' and indwelt by the Spirit of life," and which is then carried on to that future existence."
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostI'm not sure what you mean by this, or why it would relate to conditional security.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
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"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat is part of it. Why would God give you his Holy Spirit and listen to your prayers, etc, if he knows you are just going to quit believing next year? Would he bother? why? He knows what you are going to do even if you don't.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by NorrinRaddBecause it relates to things people are saying in the thread. Some seem to view "eternal life" as something future, that we receive after we physically die.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostThe people saying that here are the ones who think that eternal life can be lost before you die. If eternal lie cannot be lost, then believers have it even now.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by bling View PostEveryone is different, but if he/she was primed like those on Pentecost, I might just repeat Peter's words in Acts 2. I could use Paul's words to unbelievers if they fit.Last edited by 37818; 08-07-2016, 10:36 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostSo, what was the person ever saved from?
The question prompted an interesting little quick survey of the NT. AFAICT, there are only a few verses that directly specify what we are saved "from":
Matt. 1:21 -- Our sins.
Acts 2:40 -- This perverse generation.
Rom. 5:9 -- The wrath of God.
James 5:20 -- Death of our souls.
Matt. 18:11 (if genuine) and Luke 19:10 -- Implicitly, from the state of being "lost."
Those citations use the specific word, "sozo."
The word, "rhuomai" seems to be similar, and in fact is used in parallel to sozo in several places.
Col. 1:13 -- The domain / dominion / authority of darkness
1 Thes. 1:10 -- The wrath to come
Those are the ones that seem most relevant to the question. Of course both words are used many other times, e.g. for being "saved" (healed) from sickness, "delivered" or "rescued" from temporal danger, etc.
Now... Is there some point to your question that advances the discussion?Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postbut you aren't given a car. Eternal life isn't sitting there in your driveway. Nobody actually gets eternal life until we are resurrected. Until then we are mortals. We are promised eternal life. If you can give that up, then the promise is meaningless. If you think you will one day be immortal and live forever with God, but in reality two months from now you will turn away from the faith, then your current belief is wrong, isn't it? You will not be living eternally with God. You are wrong. Therefore even though you think you will be living forever with God and are saved, you aren't. You are damned. Your salvation is held hostage by your future self.
Jesus says no one can snatch us from his father's hand. That means not even our idiotic future selves.
If we are actually forgiven and saved then that means we are saved from all past and future sins. If give up our salvation, then we are not forgiven of anything, are we, because we will one day pay for all of our sins. So your current "salvation" is fake if you do give up your salvation at a future time.
Our salvation doesn't depend on us. It depends on Jesus and the Father. If they have forgiven us of our sins, then we are forgiven. We can't turn around and say "well I have decided I don't want to be forgiven afterall" - it is done, finished.
Originally posted by Sparko View Postone more thing. Those who say you can lose your salvation seem to think that "well God is not going to force you to be saved if you don't want to be"
But the way I see it is that he is not forcing you to do anything. He is protecting you from being wrong.
Let's say you stop believing a week before you die. Then there you are standing before God and he says "Surprise!"
Are you going to say "Bah! I dont want to be saved"
or will you say, "Oh God! I was so wrong to turn away. Please take me and save me! I didn't mean to lose my faith!"
I think God will say, "You were always saved. No one can snatch you from my hand."
Not, "Oops, sorry, I know you were faithful for 50 years, but last week you changed your mind, so off to hell you go!"Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postbut you aren't given a car. Eternal life isn't sitting there in your driveway. Nobody actually gets eternal life until we are resurrected. Until then we are mortals. We are promised eternal life. If you can give that up, then the promise is meaningless. If you think you will one day be immortal and live forever with God, but in reality two months from now you will turn away from the faith, then your current belief is wrong, isn't it? You will not be living eternally with God. You are wrong. Therefore even though you think you will be living forever with God and are saved, you aren't. You are damned. Your salvation is held hostage by your future self.
Jesus says no one can snatch us from his father's hand. That means not even our idiotic future selves. If we are actually forgiven and saved then that means we are saved from all past and future sins. If give up our salvation, then we are not forgiven of anything, are we, because we will one day pay for all of our sins. So your current "salvation" is fake if you do give up your salvation at a future time.
Our salvation doesn't depend on us. It depends on Jesus and the Father. If they have forgiven us of our sins, then we are forgiven. We can't turn around and say "well I have decided I don't want to be forgiven afterall" - it is done, finished.
Jude 1: 20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.we might become heirs having the hope of eternal lifewhoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostFine. You still have not answered the question. I will ask it again, wording the question differenty, If you were to explain to someone how to be saved and know for sure that when death comes, one would go to heaven to be with the Lord Jesus Christ, what would you actually explain?
Eternal life is spoken of as something the Christian take possession of at their conversion, but looking at the way the Bible describes this possession, it conveys the idea of an inheritance we get later:
1 John 5 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
Jude 1: 20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21
Jude is obviously writing to Christians, but describes them as waiting for Christ to bring them to eternal life.
Jesus suggests they do not have eternal life yet: John 6: 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal lifebenefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.might become heirs having the hope of eternal life
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If you get a real Bible version, it doesn't include the word "you." And in the very next verse, it makes clear that we need to keep ourselves "in the love of God" so that we can spread eternal life to other people, not to ourselves:
Jude 1:21-23
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostIf you get a real Bible version, it doesn't include the word "you." And in the very next verse, it makes clear that we need to keep ourselves "in the love of God" so that we can spread eternal life to other people, not to ourselves:
Jude 1:21-23
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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