Originally posted by JohnMartin
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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The myth of sacraments.
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The myth of sacraments.
. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJVTags: None
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostBut there are no sacraments. Only what are claimed - where there really are not such a thing as sacraments according to the word of God.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostBut there are no sacraments. Only what are claimed - where there really are not such a thing as sacraments according to the word of God.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostDespite JM's nonsense post about remarriage and contraception, there are too sacraments. That's just what they are grouped as and called.
JM
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostNo. There are only two sacraments within some versions of Protestantism. There are seven sacraments according to Catholicism. As the Catholic faith is the historical faith, then there are seven and not two sacraments. The sacramental theology of Protestantism is a humanized version of the true sacramental system.
JM
Check the original writings of the apostles. There is nothing sinful about contraception. Baptism of the believer and the Lord's Supper are commanded in Scripture, but aren't anything that I would call a sacrament, nothing supernatural about either one.When I Survey....
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Paul seems to describe marriage in sacred terms with an appeal to Genesis in multiple occasions; in 1 Corinthians 6 and Ephesians 5. He seems to describe it as a "mystery" in Ephesians 5:32. I believe there is more to marriage than we often assume (from a sacred point of view."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostDespite JM's nonsense post about remarriage and contraception, there are too sacraments. That's just what they are grouped as and called.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWe backward Baptists call them "ordinances", not sacraments.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Faber View PostHistorical? The Roman Catholic Church didn't even exist until Pope Leo, around AD 460. Maybe as late as Pope Gregory, around AD 590.
Check the original writings of the apostles. There is nothing sinful about contraception. Baptism of the believer and the Lord's Supper are commanded in Scripture, but aren't anything that I would call a sacrament, nothing supernatural about either one.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou're not backwards, you just desacramentalized them.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhat is a sacrament, IYO?
Besides in regards to baptism - believers immersion and the observance of the remembrance of Christ's death in metaphor in the Lord's supper they are not in any way to be considered a sacrament as to the words origin and use.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Here's what the Bible has to say about baptism:
In other words, through baptism "our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin." No amount of rationalization is going to make this passage go away.
In baptism we "were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands" and "raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God".
And finally:
So, according to Scripture, in baptism God crucifies our old self so that we are no longer enslaved to sin, circumcises us with a circumcision not made by hands (I.e the circumcision spoken of in Romans 2:29) and raises us to a new life. Oh right, He also saves us.
"But baptism saving us would imply that we have to do something to be saved, which would be works salvation!".
Not really. Getting baptised is an expression of our faith, and it is not we who work in the act of baptising, but God.
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Originally posted by Faber View PostHistorical? The Roman Catholic Church didn't even exist until Pope Leo, around AD 460. Maybe as late as Pope Gregory, around AD 590.
Check the original writings of the apostles. There is nothing sinful about contraception. Baptism of the believer and the Lord's Supper are commanded in Scripture, but aren't anything that I would call a sacrament, nothing supernatural about either one.
JM
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