Problems with Penal Substitution.

[Obsidian]

If Christ was a substitute for us sinners, then there would be no death in this life. Why? Christ has already taken the punishment for sin. So for men to continue to die after the cross, means God is then punishing both Jesus and men for sin. So God requires either 1) a double punishment for sin, or 2) Christs work has not been applied to anyone, for all men die. Point 2 eliminates the doctrine of limited atonement and makes Christs atonement superfluous.

When Christians die physically, the Bible doesn't refer to it as death.

Matthew 22:31-32
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

[KingsGambit]

When Christians die physically, the Bible doesn't refer to it as death.

...yes it does. In many, many locations.

[JohnMartin]

The damned are not damned forever until the final judgment. I think the odds are pretty low for those who have not repented in this life, but I put nothing past the mercy of God. Monks pray for the salvation of the whole world. Wretch that I am, I pray for some who I'm pretty sure died unrepentant. I love them regardless, so I pray for them regardless.

I don't care what Calvin taught.

So your theology is heterodox on this point. There is no salvation for the damned. All men die once and go to judgment, where upon they are sent to heaven, hell or purgatory. Those in hell are there forever.

JM

[JohnMartin]

When Christians die physically, the Bible doesn't refer to it as death.

Matthew 22:31-32
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

It doesn't matter. Men die, so they are punished for sin. Hence penal substitution is unjust for Jesus died as a substitute.

JM

[JohnMartin]

The apostolic authority of the holy scriptures stand against your arguments. They are the genuine basis of the Christian faith.

To genuine Christians it says,
". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8-9.

The saved by God's grace go to be with Christ upon death (2 Corinthians 5:8). And know they currently possess eternal life (1 John 5:12-13). And they have the promise that their names will not in any way be blotted out from the book of life (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 21:7).

The apostolic authority of the holy scriptures is merely something you believe from you denomination. Sola scriptura is not biblical.

JM

[Kbertsche]

Incidentally, I have been exploring the Christus victor model recently; does anybody here hold to it?

I think it's a good model. But it's not "either-or". Scripture clearly teaches "penal substitution", but I think it also supports "Christus victor". I think each of these two models provides a valid, but partial perspective.

[JohnMartin]

I think it's a good model. But it's not "either-or". Scripture clearly teaches "penal substitution", but I think it also supports "Christus victor". I think each of these two models provides a valid, but partial perspective.

Why believe in "penal substitution" when it has so many problems?

JM

[Obsidian]

It doesn't matter. Men die, so they are punished for sin. Hence penal substitution is unjust for Jesus died as a substitute.

The punishment for sin isn't to die physically. Adam physically went on living for hundreds of years after he sinned. Physical death is just a symptom of the absence of God's presence:

Psalm 104:29-30
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled:
thou takest away their breath, they die,
and return to their dust.
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created:
and thou renewest the face of the earth.

[JohnMartin]

The punishment for sin isn't to die physically. Adam physically went on living for hundreds of years after he sinned. Physical death is just a symptom of the absence of God's presence:

Psalm 104:29-30
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled:
thou takest away their breath, they die,
and return to their dust.
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created:
and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Adam died and then all men after the original sin also died. Death is a punishment for original sin. As Christ supposedly died as a substitute, he also died for Adam's sin, and the resulting punishment of death. Yet original sin and death continues until now. Hence penal substitution is either not applied to anyone, or it is a double punishment for sin. Both options are problematic.

JM

[One Bad Pig]

So your theology is heterodox on this point. There is no salvation for the damned. All men die once and go to judgment, where upon they are sent to heaven, hell or purgatory. Those in hell are there forever.

JM

If your assertion were true, there would be absolutely no point in the final judgment.

Scripture Verse: Rev 20:11-15 NKJV

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

© Copyright Original Source

Do you think "the damned" were pulled out of the lake of fire, only to be judged and sent right back?

Also, note 1 Peter:

Scripture Verse: 1 Pet 3:18-20

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

© Copyright Original Source

Christ did not preach to the righteous, but the unrighteous when He harrowed hell. I will gladly differ from theology which is contrary to Scripture.

[JohnMartin]

If your assertion were true, there would be absolutely no point in the final judgment.

Scripture Verse: Rev 20:11-15 NKJV

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

© Copyright Original Source

Do you think "the damned" were pulled out of the lake of fire, only to be judged and sent right back?

Also, note 1 Peter:

Scripture Verse: 1 Pet 3:18-20

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

© Copyright Original Source

Christ did not preach to the righteous, but the unrighteous when He harrowed hell. I will gladly differ from theology which is contrary to Scripture.

There is nothing in those two passages that teaches the damned are saved at the end of time. The second judgement is given for all men to see how God judges the entire human race. The particular judgement is given each particular man. Both judgements are given to cover both aspects od human nature as individual and social. There is no evidence in the scriptures that the damned are ever saved at the end of time.

JM

[Obsidian]

Adam died and then all men after the original sin also died. Death is a punishment for original sin.

I don't think that physical death is a punishment for sin. Rather, spiritual death is a consequence of sin. Jesus repeatedly refers to people who are physically dead as being alive. That is because the word "death" is used in two different ways in the Bible. The more important way it is used is to refer to spiritual death. When God told Adam that he would die when he first sinned, God was referring to spiritual death.

Physical death is merely a consequence of the original spiritual death. But it is not a punishment. It is only a consequence of the absence of God in the world. I posted the passage from Psalms above, where it shows that the presence of the Holy Spirit brings physical life and the absence brings physical death. In fact, at the rapture/resurrection an entire generation of saved people will not physically die, but will merely be "changed." That is because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. 1 Corinthians 15:50. If your theory were true, there could be no rapture because everyone would need to physically die, to be punished for original sin.

[JohnMartin]

I don't think that physical death is a punishment for sin. Rather, spiritual death is a consequence of sin. Jesus repeatedly refers to people who are physically dead as being alive. That is because the word "death" is used in two different ways in the Bible. The more important way it is used is to refer to spiritual death. When God told Adam that he would die when he first sinned, God was referring to spiritual death.

Physical death is merely a consequence of the original spiritual death. But it is not a punishment. It is only a consequence of the absence of God in the world. I posted the passage from Psalms above, where it shows that the presence of the Holy Spirit brings physical life and the absence brings physical death. In fact, at the rapture/resurrection an entire generation of saved people will not physically die, but will merely be "changed." That is because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. 1 Corinthians 15:50. If your theory were true, there could be no rapture because everyone would need to physically die, to be punished for original sin.

Physical death follows upon spiritual death. Original sin is the spiritual cause of death for humanity. Therefore death is a punishment for sin. As death still exists, then death has not been atoned for within the penal substitution model. The model is a failure. Your statement that death is not a punishment, is only your need to avoid the consequences of affirming the penal substitution theory. Your reference to the rapture ignores the fact that death is the norm for humanity subject to the penalty for sin.

Sin --> spiritual death --> physical death. If sin is atoned for then sin and its consequences in death are removed. As both sin and death still exist, then the penal substitution theory is a failure.

JM

[Obsidian]

No, all you do is repeat yourself, and ignore the logic that I post. I'm just wasting my time with you.

[JohnMartin]

No, all you do is repeat yourself, and ignore the logic that I post. I'm just wasting my time with you.

You say "When God told Adam that he would die when he first sinned, God was referring to spiritual death.", but this is merely your particular spin on the problem. You ignore physical death as a consequent punishment for sin, even though death is a punishment for sin. You could equally say God meant what He said with regard to the entire ambit of the meaning of death. Death came into the world because of the work of the devil and Adams sin. Consequently all men are born in the sate of original sin, and suffer the punishment of death. As all men continue to die, then penal substitution is a false doctrine of man, just like the invention of faith alone theology.

The reformation was just another humanist invention, by those who refused to submit to the genuine Godly authority of the Catholic Church.

JM