Problems with Penal Substitution.

[JohnMartin]

How is Christ's death on the cross justice if not substitutionary?

". . . All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . ." -- Isaiah 53:6.

". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die." -- Ezekiel 18:4.

". . . For the wages of sin [is] death; . . ." -- Romans 6:23

". . . But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ." -- Romans 5:8

". . . For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 5:14.

An act of love of the Son towards the Father on behalf of humanity.

JM

[37818]

An act of love of the Son towards the Father on behalf of humanity.

JM

How does love satisfy a penalty of death? Except one out of love dies for another which would be a penal substitutionary death. Which you seemed to have claimed is not true.

". . . For the wages of sin is death; . . ." -- Romans 6:23.

". . . God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ." -- Romans 5:8.

[Obsidian]

How does love satisfy a penalty of death?

Works-salvationists do not understand justice.

[JohnMartin]

How does love satisfy a penalty of death? Except one out of love dies for another which would be a penal substitutionary death. Which you seemed to have claimed is not true.

". . . For the wages of sin is death; . . ." -- Romans 6:23.

". . . God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ." -- Romans 5:8.

If Jesus was a substitute by suffering and death, then suffering and death would no longer exist. As suffering and death do exist, then Jesus suffered and died for another reason. That reason was to merit grace for sinners.

JM

[JohnMartin]

Works-salvationists do not understand justice.

Faith is a human work. 1 Thess 1:3 - remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faith alone theology does not do justice to Jesus work.

JM

[37818]

Faith is a human work. 1 Thess 1:3 - remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faith alone theology does not do justice to Jesus work.

JM

A denial of faith alone by God's grace alone through Christ alone is a denial of the docrine of Christ (John 3:3, 18-21; 1 John 5:1; 2 John 9.)

[37818]

If Jesus was a substitute by suffering and death, then suffering and death would no longer exist. As suffering and death do exist, then Jesus suffered and died for another reason. That reason was to merit grace for sinners.

JM

The fact that death and suffering is yet in the world shows your view against substitutionary death and suffering of God'a Christ is false. And it, the shed blood for the payment of sin was completed before Christ's physcial death on the cross (John 19:28-30).

[JohnMartin]

A denial of faith alone by God's grace alone through Christ alone is a denial of the docrine of Christ (John 3:3, 18-21; 1 John 5:1; 2 John 9.)

The phrase,"faith alone" is only found in James 2:24 where faith alone is denied. The phrases of "God's grace alone" and "Christ alone" do not exist in the NT. The entire Lutheran show is his own fabrication.

JM

[JohnMartin]

The fact that death and suffering is yet in the world shows your view against substitutionary death and suffering of God'a Christ is false. And it, the shed blood for the payment of sin was completed before Christ's physcial death on the cross (John 19:28-30).

If Christ was a substitute for us sinners, then there would be no death in this life. Why? Christ has already taken the punishment for sin. So for men to continue to die after the cross, means God is then punishing both Jesus and men for sin. So God requires either 1) a double punishment for sin, or 2) Christs work has not been applied to anyone, for all men die. Point 2 eliminates the doctrine of limited atonement and makes Christs atonement superfluous.

Penal substitution is fatally flawed in many ways.

JM

[37818]

The phrase,"faith alone" is only found in James 2:24 where faith alone is denied. The phrases of "God's grace alone" and "Christ alone" do not exist in the NT. The entire Lutheran show is his own fabrication.

JM

You cited 1 Thessalonians 1;3 claiming faith is a work. The text does not say that.

The holy scripture no where teaches anyone is saved by or through there works. Works and grace are opposites. Salvation is a matter of God's grace through faith - not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). One is justifined by works only after one is justified through faith without the works (Romans 4:5 - James 2;23; Genesis 22; - Ephesians 2:10).

[JohnMartin]

You cited 1 Thessalonians 1;3 claiming faith is a work. The text does not say that.

The holy scripture no where teaches anyone is saved by or through there works. Works and grace are opposites. Salvation is a matter of God's grace through faith - not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). One is justifined by works only after one is justified through faith without the works (Romans 4:5 - James 2;23; Genesis 22; - Ephesians 2:10).

Thats only what you think because you hold to a tradition from your local denomination.

JM

[One Bad Pig]

The Hell of the damned is for those who have not repented in this life and cannot repent in the next life. The hell of the damned is for those who are damned forever. Christ has no reason to preach to the damned, for they have no benefit from the cross. As Christ never does anything that is superfluous, then Christ did not go into the hell of the damned.

The damned are not damned forever until the final judgment. I think the odds are pretty low for those who have not repented in this life, but I put nothing past the mercy of God. Monks pray for the salvation of the whole world. Wretch that I am, I pray for some who I'm pretty sure died unrepentant. I love them regardless, so I pray for them regardless.

Calvin taught Christ suffered in the hell of the damned as part of his novel view of redemption. The entire Calvinist theology, based upon double predestination, no free will, irresistible grace, no need for the seven sacraments and so on, is merely Calvin's theological fantasy. Calvin's humanity, as depraved and without free will is false and consequently Calvin's Christ, who saves only some of the depraved through a legal imputation, is also false. Calvin's Christ with His act of limited atonement is false, and consequently Calvin's humanity, with the inability to do any good, and which participates in only a small number of elect, is also false.

The entire Calvinist TULIP theology is false.

JM

I don't care what Calvin taught.

[KingsGambit]

Incidentally, I have been exploring the Christus victor model recently; does anybody here hold to it?

[One Bad Pig]

Incidentally, I have been exploring the Christus victor model recently; does anybody here hold to it?

It's the traditional EO model. I really need to get around to reading up on it. Maybe I'll dig a book on that out and read it next; it can't be any tougher reading than what I'm finishing up (Maximus the Confessor).

[37818]

Thats only what you think because you hold to a tradition from your local denomination.

JM

The apostolic authority of the holy scriptures stand against your arguments. They are the genuine basis of the Christian faith.

To genuine Christians it says,
". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8-9.

The saved by God's grace go to be with Christ upon death (2 Corinthians 5:8). And know they currently possess eternal life (1 John 5:12-13). And they have the promise that their names will not in any way be blotted out from the book of life (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 21:7).