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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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The prophecies of one yet future event.

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  • The prophecies of one yet future event.

    My eschatology is built on the following prophecise being about one yet future event. My eschotological view can be described as futurist, pre-millennial post tribulational pre-wrath rapture view.

    ". . . For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. . . ." -- Isaiah 13:10.

    ". . . Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. . . ." -- Isaiah 43:23.

    ". . . And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. . . . " -- Ezekiel 32:7.

    ". . . The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: . . ." -- Joel 2:10.

    ". . . The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. . . ." -- Joel 2:31.

    ". . . The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. . . . " -- Joel 3:15.

    ". . . Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: . . . " -- Matthew 24:29.

    ". . . But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, . . . " -- Mark 13:24.

    ". . . And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; . . . " -- Luke 21:25.

    ". . . The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: . . . " -- Acts 2:20.

    ". . . And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; . . . " -- Revelation 6:12.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  • #2
    Originally posted by 37818
    My eschatology is built on the following prophecise being about one yet future event.
    Your quoted references (eg. Mark) left out the references to stars impacting the surface of the earth.

    Originally posted by 37818
    My eschotological view can be described as futurist, pre-millennial post tribulational pre-wrath rapture view.
    Given the massive cataclysms described, how do you expect the earth to survive and go on for another 1000 years?
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ged View Post
      Your quoted references (eg. Mark) left out the references to stars impacting the surface of the earth.
      I deliberately only cited one verse number of each context. You did note, the next verse, did you not?


      Given the massive cataclysms described, how do you expect the earth to survive and go on for another 1000 years?
      I do not see God having a problem with this.
      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

      Comment


      • #4
        From The Gospel of Matthew (NICNT: Eerdmans, 2007), by R. T. France (pages 921-922, comment on Mt 24:29, via Accordance):
        The words of v. 29 which follow the opening temporal phrase, while not a simple verbatim quotation, are so closely modeled on two OT passages that they are appropriately set out in the translation above as a poetic allusion. The first two lines are taken from Isa 13:10: the words are almost all the same as those of the LXX, though the first clause has been recast (“it will be darkened as the sun rises” becomes “the sun will be darkened”). That same text also speaks of the “stars of heaven” not giving their light, which links up with the thought of the second allusion, but the latter is in fact verbally closer to Isa 34:4. In this case the echo is less exact, but the LXX Isaiah text speaks [Matt, p. 922] both of the stars falling from heaven88 and of heaven itself “rolled up like a scroll,” while the probable Hebrew text also adds the idea of the host of heaven “rotting away.”89 These two Isaiah texts are the most obvious sources for Jesus’ words here, but there are other examples in the OT prophets of similar imagery drawn from cosmic disorder and darkness: see Ezek 32:7–8; Amos 8:9; Joel 2:10, 30–31; 3:15. In most of these passages the immediate context is of God’s threatened judgment on cities and nations, both pagan and Israelite; in the case of Joel the judgment is already actual in the form of the locust swarms which cut off the light of the sun, though this experience is used also as a model for a more universal judgment to come. In Isa 13:10 the reference is to the coming destruction of Babylon and in Isa 34:4 to a threatened judgment on “all nations,” which is then narrowed down specifically to Edom. Language about cosmic collapse, then, is used by the OT prophets to symbolize God’s acts of judgment within history, with the emphasis on catastrophic political reversals.90

        When Jesus borrows Isaiah’s imagery it is reasonable to understand it in a similar sense.91 If such language was appropriate to describe the end of Babylon or Edom under the judgment of God, why should it not equally describe God’s judgment on Jerusalem’s temple and the power structure which it symbolized? It is certainly shocking that Isaiah’s patriotic denunciation of Babylon and Edom could be turned against Jerusalem, and God’s own city reduced to the level of a pagan power, but we shall see that this reversal of roles is at the heart of the message of these verses, as it has been already of such key pronouncements as 8:11–12. It should be noted also that the same sort of cosmic language is used of judgments not on pagan nations but on the northern and southern kingdoms of Israel in Amos 8:9 and Joel 2:10 respectively. The language is extravagant and vivid, but that does not mean that its use by Jesus must be divorced from historical events any more than it was in [Matt, p. 923] Isaiah. It is natural that such language should also be able to be extended (as it is already especially in Joel) to speak of more eschatological judgment, but that is no reason to deny its primary reference to historical events where the context requires.92 On that understanding, therefore, v. 29 is now at last providing in symbolic language the answer to the disciples’ first question. This is the act of historic judgment which Jesus has already predicted in more prosaic terms in v. 2. But the use of this prophetic imagery enables the reader to understand that what is to be destroyed is not just a magnificent building, but a center of power comparable to ancient Babylon. And when such a power structure collapses, another is needed to take its place: this will be supplied in vv. 30–31 with its vision of the enthronement of the Son of Man and the gathering of his chosen people from all over the world.
        88. N. T. Wright, Victory 354–355, suggests a further allusion to the taunt against the king of Babylon as the “day star, fallen from heaven” in Isa 14:12, an equally clearly political image.

        89. For details of how the words relate to both Hebrew and LXX texts of Isa 34:4 see my Jesus and the OT 255–256; the imagery is of the “host of heaven” (the stars) falling like withered leaves off a tree. The verb “shake” here may reflect the OT image of the dead leaves shaken off the tree, or may be influenced by the similar passage Joel 2:10 (LXX σεισθήσεται ὁ οὐρανός).

        90. N. T. Wright, Victory 362, compares our use of the term “earth-shattering” to describe major turning-points within history.

        91. The political nature of the imagery is recognized by Carter, 477–478, who however, consistently with his interpretation of vv. 27–28 (see pp. 918–19, nn. 79, 82), understands it of the Roman emperors who used the sun and moon to symbolize their power: “It is ‘lights out’ time for all tyrants.”

        92. J. A. Gibbs, Jerusalem 188–195, demonstrates at length the OT use of such figurative language in “theophanic or eschatological” contexts which in fact relate to events within history, and argues cogently (ibid. 195–197) for a similar reference here in Matthew 24: “the cosmos and its powers will be shaken as divine judgment comes down upon the temple and city.”
        Last edited by John Reece; 01-27-2014, 10:18 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by John Reece View Post


          When Jesus borrows Isaiah’s imagery
          It is Matthew who did so, after Mark.

          Originally posted by John Reece View Post
          If such language was appropriate to describe the end of Babylon or Edom under the judgment of God, why should it not equally describe God’s judgment on Jerusalem’s temple and the power structure which it symbolized?
          Matthew 24:29 says: Εὐθέως δὲ μετὰ τὴν θλῖψιν τῶν ἡμερῶν ἐκείνων = but immediately after the affliction of those days.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            My eschatology is built on the following prophecise being about one yet future event. My eschotological view can be described as futurist, pre-millennial post tribulational pre-wrath rapture view.

            ". . . The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. . . ." -- Joel 2:31.

            ". . . The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: . . . " -- Acts 2:20.
            As I was discussing with Nick in Deeper Waters regarding the full text:

            Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

            Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

            Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

            Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

            Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

            Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
            Source text:

            Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

            Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

            Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

            Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
            Would you see this as a dual fulfillment of all these things, both in the 1st century and the future? Or do you think part of it happened in the 1st century and part of it is for the future?

            You may also be interested in exploring a related idea I brought up with him:

            Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
            Have you ever considered that trumpets, days, sun, moon, etc. of Joel 2:1/Joel 2:10 and Joel 2:15/Joel 2:31 are the same events? Where Joel 2:1-11 focuses on terror of the army, Joel 2:12 initiates a recap (even now return to Me), and Joel 2:13-32 focuses on comfort and faith of the righteous in those days.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
              As I was discussing with Nick in Deeper Waters regarding the full text:
              Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

              Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

              Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

              Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

              Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

              Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


              Source text:
              Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

              Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

              Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

              Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.


              Would you see this as a dual fulfillment of all these things, both in the 1st century and the future? Or do you think part of it happened in the 1st century and part of it is for the future?

              You may also be interested in exploring a related idea I brought up with him:
              Have you ever considered that trumpets, days, sun, moon, etc. of Joel 2:1/Joel 2:10 and Joel 2:15/Joel 2:31 are the same events? Where Joel 2:1-11 focuses on terror of the army, Joel 2:12 initiates a recap (even now return to Me), and Joel 2:13-32 focuses on comfort and faith of the righteous in those days.
              I do not have time at this moment to discuss each point. In short, my understanding of the OT prophecies, that there can be multiple fulfillment, in the case of Joel, historical, as in his day, the time of Acts as Peter spoke, and the yet future event. That the prophets speak in common.
              . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks, I understand.

                Comment

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