Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
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Eschatology 201 Guidelines
This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
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According to preterism there is no devil [in the world today].
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View Post". . . For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. . . ." This would no longer be the case if the Devil is locked up would it? Or is it just the Devil's cohorts we call demons still at play in this.
And of course demons are in play unless you are conceited enough to think you warrant the devil's personal attention. He isn't omnipresent.The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostThat Satan tempts us to sin isn't a free ride to say "devil made me do it" to avoid responsibility, it's a call to ask Jesus to fight Satan for us, and to forgive us if we fail. If in God's plans it isn't in the cards and He chooses not to have us turn to Him, as He hardened Pharaoh's heart, then we won't turn to Him in the first place. This doesn't indicate Pelagianism which seems to imply that we can always choose God out of free will no matter what, and we know from Pharaoh's example that's not the case, God has to allow it.
Pelagianism in part also denies that sin entered the world through Adam, and that we don't need God to avoid sin, where I claim the opposite. What the Bible does imply is that Adam was never tempted before the influence of Satan by way of Eve, and that Satan is key in tempting man, from Job to Jesus. And that Satan is bound in the Abyss so he can deceive the nations no more. Then later Satan is gone for good in the Lake of Fire, and after...
So at this point, is there any more temptation to sin, where sin causes death, sorrow, crying, pain? Doesn't seem so. Where did the temptation to sin go? Seems to me it went into the Lake of Fire. Right now Satan and thus some temptations can be removed by God. In the end I see them being removed for good. So my question is, at the point of Revelation 21 cited, are humans still sinning or being tempted to sin? If not, what happens to that temptation?
And again the devil is not omnipresent.The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThe logic seems sound to me for this being Pelagian. Taken to a logical extreme, this could also mean that people could blame the devil for their sin and not take any personal responsibility. And of course people can make that argument all they want, but they would be wrong.The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.
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Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostContradicts what you said previously. So you concede that we would still sin today if theoretically the devil were destroyed.
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostAnd yes people still sin then....
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostThose in hell will persist in their hatred of God. No devil required.
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostAnd again the devil is not omnipresent.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostNo, I hold that temptation comes from the devil. Why bind the devil in the Abyss at all if he doesn't influence sin? Why are nations suddenly deceived when he is let out, if they could have been deceived all along while he was bound?Doesn't sin cause death, sorrow, crying, pain?
Those things are said to be gone in Revelation 21, coincidentally after the devil is in the Lake of Fire. Will people feel happiness not sorrow when they sin in the New Jerusalem?The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.
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Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostBack to flirting with pelagianism.
Do you have a specific article in mind dealing with these questions, I'll google around too.
Below...
That nations are not deceived when Satan is in the Abyss, and that people are not deceived in Heaven when Satan is in the Lake of Fire, implies that Satan's ability to deceive is restricted by both.
The question still remains, what is the point of binding Satan to keep him from deceiving if people are deceived anyway?
I asked if people still sin at the point of Revelation 21:3-4 which refers to people in Heaven, so when you replied "And yes people still sin then...." I expected that you were replying to that, so apparently we misunderstood each other.
The other question still remains, what is it that causes people not to sin in Heaven, if not for removal of Satan/demon presence from them into the Lake of Fire?
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostFunny this. I run the forum for myself only for fellowship, I don't debate much anymore--- leave that to everyone else. It just irritates me and I get ugly.
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The way I see it, a non-literal interpretation can say that Satan's binding was not necessarily and ACTUAL binding, but a poetic/apocalyptic way of saying that he has been (forcibly) removed from the central throne of the world. After all, Jesus is the king, the kingdom is here, Jesus is ruling the world. This does not have to mean that Satan has been completely removed and inactive or MIA. He can still have a significant amount of influence in today's world, yet his power evidently has not been enough to prohibit the spread of the gospel, so it most certainly can be said that he is "no longer deceiving the nations."
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Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostGood thing I don't believe the devil is literally locked up.
And of course demons are in play unless you are conceited enough to think you warrant the devil's personal attention. He isn't omnipresent.Last edited by 37818; 01-25-2014, 07:37 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by iTeluog View PostThe way I see it, a non-literal interpretation can say that Satan's binding was not necessarily and ACTUAL binding, but a poetic/apocalyptic way of saying that he has been (forcibly) removed from the central throne of the world. After all, Jesus is the king, the kingdom is here, Jesus is ruling the world. This does not have to mean that Satan has been completely removed and inactive or MIA. He can still have a significant amount of influence in today's world, yet his power evidently has not been enough to prohibit the spread of the gospel, so it most certainly can be said that he is "no longer deceiving the nations."
That said, it seems the precedent of opening the Bottomless Pit with a key and letting evil influences out with power in Revelation 9 may imply that what is in the Bottomless Pit has no power at all. Whereas, with rising secular influences, issues with Muslims, Christian leaders falling to corruption, decline of Christianity in places like the UK, threat of global destruction with WMDs, ad nauseam...seems to me Satan is gaining the upper hand in many aspects of humanity, though it has been and up and down process of divide and conquer. I still see us in the stage of separating sheep from goats, with Satan as always deceiving the goats, I guess you could say.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostI still see us in the stage of separating sheep from goats, with Satan as always deceiving the goats, I guess you could say.
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Originally posted by iTeluog View PostThe way I see it, a non-literal interpretation can say that Satan's binding was not necessarily and ACTUAL binding, but a poetic/apocalyptic way of saying that he has been (forcibly) removed from the central throne of the world. After all, Jesus is the king, the kingdom is here, Jesus is ruling the world. This does not have to mean that Satan has been completely removed and inactive or MIA. He can still have a significant amount of influence in today's world, yet his power evidently has not been enough to prohibit the spread of the gospel, so it most certainly can be said that he is "no longer deceiving the nations.""I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by iTeluog View PostI think Glenn Peoples had a view along this line, where Satan is bound yet still has the ability to deceive the non-elect. He can correct me if I'm inaccurate regarding this.
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