Originally posted by Maranatha
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Eschatology 201 Guidelines
This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
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Why prophecy can't be taken literally
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The Pharisees and today's millennialists fail to realize the spiritual nature of the kingdom Jesus brought with him and preached. So the OT Kingdom prophecies are not literal. They are symbolic and pertain to Jesus and the Kingdom of God which came when Daniel said it would.
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Originally posted by Dave L View PostThe Pharisees and today's millennialists fail to realize the spiritual nature of the kingdom Jesus brought with him and preached. So the OT Kingdom prophecies are not literal. They are symbolic and pertain to Jesus and the Kingdom of God which came when Daniel said it would.
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Originally posted by seanD View Post
So there never was a LITERAL Man of Sorrows who carried out sin and sicknesses fulfilled by Isaiah 53? And the apostles who told us about it I guess also failed to understand it wasn't literal? You guys really don't put much thought into your arguments. Now I'm guessing what you're going to do next is move the goalposts and argue that you didn't really mean that the prophecies weren't literal when it pertained to Jesus, just everything after Jesus.
Now, it is contrary to the nature and genius of prophecy to reveal the future as detailed history. In all prophecy there is an element of obscurity and perhaps even of ambiguity. The Lord had distinctly said that He would speak to the prophets in a manner less clear and direct than that in which He would speak to Moses His Servant (Num. 12:1–8). With the prophets He would speak in dreams and visions and—so it would seem—in dark and enigmatic sayings. In revelations which were given as visions, therefore, we should expect an abundance of imagery and symbolism. There are many instances of such revelation in the prophetical books (e. g., Isa. 24–27; Joel 3:9–17; Zech. 14; Ps. 2; Amos 7–9).
Young, E. J. (1980). The Prophecy of Daniel: A Commentary (p. 21). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.
Samples; “And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.” Mark 9:9–10 (NCPB)
“And they asked him, saying, ‘Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?’ And he answered and told them, ‘Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. But I say unto you, that Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.’” Mark 9:11–13 (NCPB)
“For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, ‘The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him, and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day’. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.” Mark 9:31–32 (NCPB)
“I have told you these things before they happen so that when they do happen, you will believe.” John 14:29 (NLT)
“Yes, I’m telling you these things now, so that when they happen, you will remember my warning. I didn’t tell you earlier because I was going to be with you for a while longer.” John 16:4 (NLT)
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
You could not understand this until after fulfillment. Only a petty few prophecies were understood before fulfillment.
Now, it is contrary to the nature and genius of prophecy to reveal the future as detailed history. In all prophecy there is an element of obscurity and perhaps even of ambiguity. The Lord had distinctly said that He would speak to the prophets in a manner less clear and direct than that in which He would speak to Moses His Servant (Num. 12:1–8). With the prophets He would speak in dreams and visions and—so it would seem—in dark and enigmatic sayings. In revelations which were given as visions, therefore, we should expect an abundance of imagery and symbolism. There are many instances of such revelation in the prophetical books (e. g., Isa. 24–27; Joel 3:9–17; Zech. 14; Ps. 2; Amos 7–9).
Young, E. J. (1980). The Prophecy of Daniel: A Commentary (p. 21). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.
Samples; “And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.” Mark 9:9–10 (NCPB)
“And they asked him, saying, ‘Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?’ And he answered and told them, ‘Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. But I say unto you, that Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.’” Mark 9:11–13 (NCPB)
“For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, ‘The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him, and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day’. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.” Mark 9:31–32 (NCPB)
“I have told you these things before they happen so that when they do happen, you will believe.” John 14:29 (NLT)
“Yes, I’m telling you these things now, so that when they happen, you will remember my warning. I didn’t tell you earlier because I was going to be with you for a while longer.” John 16:4 (NLT)
So now to plan B.
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It's also pretty hilarious that you did exactly what I thought you'd do. You changed it from no prophecies are literal, to okay prophecies are literal but no one understands them before they're fulfilled. So now that I debunked that, it's actually time for plan C, not B.
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Originally posted by seanD View Post
This is not true. Many Jews understood Isaiah 53 to be the Messiah prior to Jesus. They changed it to mean Israel after Jesus for obvious reasons. In fact, many if not most of the messianic prophecies Christians attribute to Jesus, Jews understood as messianic prior.
So now to plan B.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostIt's also pretty hilarious that you did exactly what I thought you'd do. You changed it from no prophecies are literal, to okay prophecies are literal but no one understands them before they're fulfilled. So now that I debunked that, it's actually time for plan C, not B.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
Why the foul attitude in place of a sincere exchange of ideas?
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Originally posted by seanD View Post
Because I just don't like what I perceive as disingenuous arguments when it comes to eschatology, and I've seen plenty of those in my discussions over the years about the subject. The fact you clearly moved the goalposts is disingenuous to me. If you're going to believe something, believe it and hold to it. Don't just throw different versions of what you believe out there just to win an argument.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
Could it be you are misinformed? It took decades of study and refinement from the scriptures to confidently say what I say. BTW, the disciples did not understand Jesus' death until after the fact.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
We have a rough view, but fulfillment connects the dots. If true why did the Jews claim Isaiah 53 was about them and reject Christ? "The broad consensus among Jewish, and even some Christian commentators, that the “servant” in Isaiah 52-53 refers to the nation of Israel is understandable. Isaiah 53, which is the fourth of four renowned Servant Songs, is umbilically connected to its preceding chapters. The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel." https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suf...ant-isaiah-53/
Btw, you should know that the website you linked is a Jewish site specifically for the purpose of countering Christian evangelism. I'll assume you didn't know that, because that would be quite odd that a Christian would use that as a source for his argument.
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Originally posted by seanD View Post
As I said, there were Jewish sources predating Christianity that recognized Isaiah 53 to be messianic. There are a slew of other prophecies Jews accepted as messianic before Christians proclaimed them in Christ. My point is, you are wrong about not understanding literal prophecy before it's fulfilled. They didn't fully grasp the role of Messiah as redeemer, but they indeed recognized its literal foretelling from OT scripture.
Btw, you should know that the website you linked is a Jewish site specifically for the purpose of countering Christian evangelism. I'll assume you didn't know that, because that would be quite odd that a Christian would use that as a source for his argument.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
Do you have any quotes? My quote said they thought they were Isaiah's focus. Did you know only about 11% of prophecy ever came to pass as written?
Bernd Janowski, Peter Stuhlmacher, Daniel P. Bailey, The Suffering Servant, p.75-77 - they outline early rabbinic references of Isaiah 53 as pertaining to an individual Messiah.
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Originally posted by seanD View Post
This is getting way off topic and my initial point lost, but...
Bernd Janowski, Peter Stuhlmacher, Daniel P. Bailey, The Suffering Servant, p.75-77 - they outline early rabbinic references of Isaiah 53 as pertaining to an individual Messiah.
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