Originally posted by Littlejoe
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Eschatology 201 Guidelines
This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
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Generation Y and Z Confirms Futurism is true
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Originally posted by seanD View Post"The end" probably should be clarified. I believe Jesus interprets "the end" as the Tribulation, and Matthew 24:14 makes that pretty clear. He says there is a time called the Beginning of Sorrows (which I firmly believe we're in right now) that's a precursor. The Beginning of Sorrows is a time where terrible and disturbing events accumulate (including persecution of the church), causing worldwide trepidation, and though it's bad, it's not "the end," meaning the Tribulation hasn't started yet. When Jesus says "see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet," I interpret that as "Cheer up saints, yes it's bad, but you haven't seen anything yet." When the Tribulation happens, they'll be no doubt to us that this is it.
It took over 2000 years for us to get to 60%. Do you think the other 40% will gotten to in the next few years? Is so, how do you think that will happen?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View PostI have a hard time believing the world is evolving towards the better. There just seems too much evidence to the contray.
ETA: I think things have gotten quite a bit better in the last 50 years.Last edited by Littlejoe; 07-08-2020, 12:59 PM."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostSo you believe there's a separate "beginning of sorrows" that is not part of or the start of the Tribulation? And you gave OBP a hard time about deviation from standard Preterist beliefs? That's not a common belief in my experience...but, I could be wrong. I haven't been a futurist in over 10 years so...
It took over 2000 years for us to get to 60%. Do you think the other 40% will gotten to in the next few years? Is so, how do you think that will happen?
And trying to stick a date on His return is impossible. And anti-scriptural.
I am living as if Christ's return is imminent. As we are instructed to be doing in scripture. It may or may not be in our lifetime, but I know it will be when God's timing demands it.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostWhy would we think that any human's perception of the percentage of people reached with the gospel is accurate? Only God knows who has and has not, for sure.
And trying to stick a date on His return is impossible. And anti-scriptural.
I am living as if Christ's return is imminent. As we are instructed to be doing in scripture. It may or may not be in our lifetime, but I know it will be when God's timing demands it."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostSo you believe there's a separate "beginning of sorrows" that is not part of or the start of the Tribulation? And you gave OBP a hard time about deviation from standard Preterist beliefs? That's not a common belief in my experience...but, I could be wrong. I haven't been a futurist in over 10 years so...
It took over 2000 years for us to get to 60%. Do you think the other 40% will gotten to in the next few years? Is so, how do you think that will happen?
As far as preaching the gospel to the world, I don't see how anyone could accurately quantify such a thing. There's never been a time in history that the gospel has been spread throughout the world as it is now. How could you know for sure which specific indigenous communities have or have not heard about it? What if there are communities that have heard about it but rejected it? How could anyone accurately assess that?
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI honestly don't see how anyone could read the OD and not come to that conclusion. Jesus literally says "Beginning of Sorrows" that he describes as a time of trouble -- wars, civil unrest, famines, pestilences, etc. -- before the Tribulation. He distinguishes this time from the actual Tribulation (Matthew 24:21). I honestly don't think he could have been any clearer. He then gives a benchmark for the start of the Tribulation -- something, an event, happens in Israel that starts the Tribulation.
As far as preaching the gospel to the world, I don't see how anyone could accurately quantify such a thing. There's never been a time in history that the gospel has been spread throughout the world as it is now. How could you know for sure which specific indigenous communities have or have not heard about it? What if there are communities that have heard about it but rejected it? How could anyone accurately assess that?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostSurely you don't think that there's no way to at least get some sort of estimate of the work ahead of us in fulfilling the Great Commission? How do you know who to target if you don't know who has heard and who has not?
Who is that directed at? When did I suggest anything remotely like a date? I read SeanD's point to be the "Beginnings of Sorrows" has started or is close to starting...and that period is closely related to the actual start of the big event of "The Tribulation". I'm asking how long that period is supposed to last before the actual Tribulation starts?
As any Christian should be...but surely, living as if your life may be required of you unexpectedly and living your life as if Christ's return is imminent are functionally the same...are they not?
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostI've heard that to mean the beginning of the Tribulation in contrast to the "the end" to mean the end of the tribulation.
Again, how do you determine who to try to reach if you don't have a clue about who has been reached. Read the articles, they make valid points in assessing who has and has not heard the Gospel.
I still don't see how you can quantify whether every community has or hasn't heard about it at least in glancing (especially considering the awareness of western culture throughout the world). We're certainly in an age that "the gospel shall be preached in all the world as a witness" is certainly possible, but that doesn't guarantee its acceptance by any one individual or community that hears about it.
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Originally posted by seanD View Post*crickets*
Man, that's quite a change from all the scoffing that went on in the beginning. Guess things don't look so funny anymore.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Anyway, back to the topic.
Intersectionality: The new socioreligious experience of the millennial youth. It's more than just a political movement; it's similar to a religion (only non-theist for the most part, though there are theists getting mixed up in it), and it's a religion that is wholly anti-Christ and against all things fundamental to Christianity.
Case in point. Imagine the hostility one would face preaching about Christ to these unruly mobs tearing down statues or even just on a university campus today.
Though a similar youth movement may have occurred during the 60s -- where intersectional politics intermingled with a spiritual type of New Ageism -- the counter culture during that time faced resistance from society and the state, whereas now both the state and corporations not only don't resist, but give it a platform or just outright sanction it, and even purge or silence resistance against it. Also, consider this new millennial movement is occurring at a time conventional religious belief is alarmingly waning in the west.
This is really good article about the subject by Intelligencer...
Notice this article is three years old, yet this thing is as pervasive as ever across the country today, more than it was three years ago as far as I can tell. Another good article -- more up to date -- by Spectator that addresses the intermingling of this movement and the state as well as other religious institutions.
I would advise liberal Christians not jump on board this thing, or if you're already on board, get off now.
ETA: in case anyone hits a paywall on the Spectator article...
Last edited by seanD; 07-08-2020, 08:21 PM.
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How pervasive the Intersectionality cult is becoming. You know you've got a pretty powerful phenomenon happening when its infection is reaching federal levels. Just to show how much I was actually underestimating this movement in the OP (bolded emphasis mine)....
Treasury Department The National Credit Union AdministrationSandia National LaboratoriesDepartment of Homeland SecurityFBI
Twitter source
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's related to eschatology and it is what it is, and a reality we should prepare for...
Study Finds Many Young Americans ‘Don’t Care’ About God But Christian Leaders Are Hopeful
(emphasis mine)
The American Worldview Inventory 2021, the most recent research from Arizona Christian University (ACU), demonstrates that significant spiritual views differ significantly throughout contemporary generations.
The American Worldview Inventory 2021, a study of American adults' philosophy of life, evaluated the worldviews of four generations: millennials (born 1984-2002), Gen X (1965-1983), baby boomers (1946-1964), and builders (born 1946-1964). (1927-1945).
Per Christian Post's report, researchers found that millennials have gone farther than previous generations in severing links with conventional Christian beliefs and biblical teaching.
For example, over half of all baby boomers say that they will go to Heaven exclusively because they confessed their sins and accepted Jesus as their Savior, whereas only 26% of Gen X and 16% of millennials believe this.
Builders think that they should treat people the way they want to be treated, whereas just around half of millennials agree.
In addition, millennials are more likely than boomers to say they do not know, do not care, or do not think God exists, with 43 percent saying so. In addition, 44 percent of millennials think Satan is real and influential, compared to 64 percent of boomers.
Younger Americans are also substantially more inclined than earlier generations to believe horoscopes as a guide and Karma as a life philosophy, to consider "getting even" with others as justifiable, to believe evolution over creation, and to consider owning property as supporting economic inequality.
Younger Americans are significantly more prone than older Americans to doubt the Bible and feel God is completely disinterested in people's lives.
Surprisingly, the majority of Americans, ranging from 57% of millennials to 83 % of builders identify as Christians. (It's worth noting that many who call themselves "Christians" do not necessarily believe what the Bible says. These people, according to a previous poll, believe in "Moralistic Therapeutic Deism," or simply "watered-down, feel-good, fake Christianity.")
Researchers feel that the views and practices of younger Americans, particularly millennials, "threaten to reshape the nation's religious parameters beyond recognition."
They added, "In fact, this radical spiritual revolution has created a generation seeking a reimagined world without God, the Bible, or churches."
According to the report, Gen X and millennials have "solidified dramatic changes in the nation's central beliefs and lifestyles," adding, "The result is a culture in which core institutions, including churches, and basic ways of life are continually being radically redefined."
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This is a very western-centric view. The church is exploding in the global South right now. :shrugs:"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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