*.....aren't you the one who was going on and on about the Great Delusion having begun? ....*
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Eschatology 201 Guidelines
This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
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Martyrdom of Antipas
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostHaha, at least you follow orders well. Yes, I'm the one who warned you all of what is coming and what is already here. You're welcome.
But as I think about it, I recall that I didn't follow your entire thread about the delusion you were concerned about...Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostDunno what you mean about following orders...but I find it rather interesting you are so stuck on the dates of this particular issue.
But as I think about it, I recall that I didn't follow your entire thread about the delusion you were concerned about...
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostNope, you can be ordained a saint, or a lawyer or a doctor or anything really. The point, which you didn't bother responding to, presumably because you couldn't, is that no one was being declared a saint in the 1st century, so the only ordination that could have been meant in the traditions was Antipas being made overseer of Pergamum by John. See if you can find any more hairs to split.
Originally posted by Romans 15:25,26But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints. For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.Originally posted by 2 Corinthians 1:1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.
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Originally posted by alaskazimm View PostThis is but a small sampling of verses calling believers saints - the first Acts 9:13 being from the very early years of the church; a Logos search pulls up over 50 more. It seems that quite a few times believers were declared saints in the 1st century.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by alaskazimm View PostThis is but a small sampling of verses calling believers saints - the first Acts 9:13 being from the very early years of the church; a Logos search pulls up over 50 more. It seems that quite a few times believers were declared saints in the 1st century.
G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
H2282
חָג חַג
chag châg
khag, khawg
A festival, or a victim therefor: - (solemn) feast (day), sacrifice, solemnity.
The New Testament word "saint" was used for those who were members of the "congregation" or "solemn assembly", to use Old Testament parlance. It was used for those who had sanctified themselves to worship God as He saw fit. The word was later hijacked by the pagan synthesizing Catholics as a word for their pagan practice of apotheosis. People were not yet being declared "saints" (demigods) in the 1st century.
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostThe Orthodox are as opposed to futurism as the Catholics, because it undermines their power. They provided no evidence for a 60's AD date. And "ordination" (as a saint) didn't exist in the 1st century, so your special pleading is showing.
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Originally posted by xcav8tor View PostHi Littlejoe,
According to this guy, Alaharasan, V. Antony J. (2009). From Patmos to Paradise : John's vision of heaven. New York: Paulist Press. p. 40. ISBN 9780809145898, page 40:
"Faced with the errors of Balaam, the heathen prophet of the Old Testament, and the Nicolations, who sought to undercut true faith, the Christians were asked to emulate the courageous, faithful witness of Antipas. According to Christian tradition, St. John ordained Antipas as bishop of Pergamum during the reign of the Roman emperor, Domitian. The traditional account reports that Antipas was martyred in 92 AD by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar used for casting out demons by the local population."
So he also agrees with Renner from the CBN link I shared.
As Chrawus points out, Wikidedia is no help, having Antipas ordained after his own death.
According to the Orthodox Church source you offered, he died in 68, but according to this Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America site (https://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints?contentid=15
Surely you don't mean to get into a "dualing websites" type argument? Do you not think I couldn't find 3 sources as well? I mean, agumentum ad populum is a well known fallacy.
Doing a bit more research into the matter shows several sites admitting that there's not much known, or no written records of Antipas.
This link is to a paper written by Preterist Gary Demar of American Vision fame. On page 8 he cites Bruce W. Longenecker from his book (Bruce W. Longenecker, The Lost Letters of Pergamum: A Story from the New Testament World, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, [2003] 2016), 11.)
"the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant's death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit..."
And though Jerome puts the date as during Domitian, he also says that during the final reign of Domitian, he instigated the biggest persecution of all, even greater than Nero's. So, even Jerome acknowledges there was immense persecution under Nero.
The meaning/translation of Irenaeus' statement has argued for years (centuries?)
We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.
Objections being: 1) it's not original to him but a quote from Polycarp., 2) Polycarp's original meaning referred to his remembering "that" sometime near the end of Domitian's reign there would be an antichrist. 3) It's not clear what Polycarp was referring to or what he actually means by "that was seen". Was it Revelation or the forementioned antichrist?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostThe Orthodox are as opposed to futurism as the Catholics, because it undermines their power. They provided no evidence for a 60's AD date. And "ordination" (as a saint) didn't exist in the 1st century, so your special pleading is showing."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostWell, since I'm not Orthodox or Catholic, I didn't realize there was no sainthood yet in the late 1st century. But, just because none are provided doesn't mean it's any more special pleading than your examples.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostHi xcav8tor,
Surely you don't mean to get into a "dualing websites" type argument?
You are correct. I was under no illusion that you could not find websites to counter my sources, and I agree that truth isn't decided by a majority anyway. I was merely trying to ask who can know for sure whose sources were reliable. I shouldn't have mentioned "my 3" at the time.
I also agree that little was written about Antipas, but if he indeed was martyred in 92 AD, that does throw a wrench into the entire Preterist interpretation of Revelation. Unfortunately, it appears we cannot know for sure either way. Anyway, thanks for the additional info.
There are many problems with the Preterist interpretation in my opinion, but I will not raise this objection in the future. The sources I quoted may be correct, but there is no use appealing to them when they are not air-tight.Last edited by xcav8tor; 04-13-2019, 11:21 AM.
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Originally posted by xcav8tor View PostHi Littlejoe,
You are correct. I was under no illusion that you could not find websites to counter my sources, and I agree that truth isn't decided by a majority anyway. I was merely trying to ask who can know for sure whose sources were reliable. I shouldn't have mentioned "my 3" at the time.
I also agree that little was written about Antipas, but if he indeed was martyred in 92 AD, that does throw a wrench into the entire Preterist interpretation of Revelation. Unfortunately, it appears we cannot know for sure either way. Anyway, thanks for the additional info.
There are many problems with the Preterist interpretation in my opinion, but I will not raise this objection in the future. The sources I quoted may be correct, but there is no use appealing to them when they are not air-tight."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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