Originally posted by Darfius
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Eschatology 201 Guidelines
This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
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Life after the eclipse (sign of Jonah)
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Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostRest assured I hope that's the point at which your rationalizations come to an end.
With all due respect, prophecies of signs of the end have a 0% track record of being right. Given Jesus' rather emphatic warnings of false signs and prophets, I think I'll take the risk of simply waiting for His return and living my life according to His will regardless of what signs others think they see.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by eschaton View PostI think the way to make the correct interpretation is to look for the teaching tradition of the apostles in the early church. That's why I gave the quote from Hippolytus. The church fathers may not be right about everything, but they are when they rely on that tradition, IMO. Hippolytus is one of the earliest to comment on Rev 12. Methodius of Olympus gives extensive commentary in "Symposium." The reason for so many opinions today is that few look to see the early interpretations.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostNot everyone agrees with it because most people are too busy studying commentaries and philosophizing instead of first reading what the text explicitly says. In Chapter 13, the beast has the victory over the saints for 3.5 years. In Revelation 14, the gospel is proclaimed and the earth is reaped. In Revelation 15, the saints have already achieved victory. And it is only afterward that the vials are unleashed.
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostHippolytus's eschatological interpretation involved the end of the world occurring 500 years after Jesus's birth. That clearly didn't happen, so the validity of his interpretation seems a bit dubious.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostGiven Jesus' rather emphatic warnings of false signs and prophets, I think I'll take the risk of simply waiting for His return and living my life according to His will regardless of what signs others think they see.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostThat isn't an option for a futurist as per Jesus also plainly instructing them to know the signs so we'll know when it's "even at the door" (which is presumably why he gave the signs about the parousia), which you conveniently left out.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by seanD View PostThat isn't an option for a futurist
...as per Jesus also plainly instructing them to know the signs so we'll know when it's "even at the door" (which is presumably why he gave the signs about the parousia), which you conveniently left out.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThen futurists maybe ought to re-think their position.
Except he *didn't* give signs of the end. He said, "when you see these things, the time is not yet." The Christians in Jerusalem in the 60s AD saw those things, fled at an opportune time, and thus did not get caught in the siege and sack of Jerusalem.
Learn to read.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThen futurists maybe ought to re-think their position.
Except he *didn't* give signs of the end. He said, "when you see these things, the time is not yet." The Christians in Jerusalem in the 60s AD saw those things, fled at an opportune time, and thus did not get caught in the siege and sack of Jerusalem.Last edited by seanD; 10-07-2017, 09:17 PM.
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Originally posted by Faber View PostThey did. They were told to flee to Pella.
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Originally posted by seanDBut not all of the prophecies were fulfilled. Jesus never came on the cloud at the sound of the trump (which I believe correlates with Paul's trump) to gather the elect from heaven and earth. And there's no need to argue that that was actually symbolic of Christ's revenge on Jerusalem because I think that interpretation is absurd.
And you are correct that the trumpets are not about the destruction of Jerusalem. The destruction of Jerusalem occurs during the sixth or seventh seal. The trumpets occur after. That's something that even most preterists fail to grasp.
Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after
And the purpose of the trumpets is not to punish Jerusalem -- or even necessarily to punish anyone else -- but rather, to gather the elect from the ends of the earth.
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