Mary Mother of God

[hansgeorg]

How do we know they can hear anything we say? And what if thousands pray to a saint at the same time (which is likely) - how are we to explain how finite creatures can possibly hear earthly requests from all over the globe simultaneously?

The answer is the same, God is providing them the knowledge they need.

Have you heard of the Pop Culture concept (about fantasy) which is called "Narnian Time"?

Are you aware that "God can create dimensions" (at least relevant either if you consider time one, or if you consider those of space as interesting parallels to time), since Bishop Tempier among other errors or heresies condemned in early 1277 (or, as he would have said, late 1276, still not March 25!) condemned "that the first cause cannot create dimensions"?

[hansgeorg]

And the Church has never gotten any tradition wrong.

Exactly so : the Church of Christ has never gotten any tradition wrong.

[hansgeorg]

And Muslims will claim Allah healed them and Mormons claim that prayers to Joseph yielded similar results. Why even bother with anyone other than Jesus Himself? Makes no sense to me.

It is true that God will sometimes hear prayers, even miraculously, of those innocently erring.

But the record of heard prayers in RC Church and in OC is outstanding.

[hansgeorg]

Where in the Bible does it tell us to pray for one's soul?

2 Maccabees. Chapter 12, I think. Yes, 12:[46] It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

[hansgeorg]

Just a comment because someone brought up the cloud of witnesses to me just yesterday, the witnesses being referred to are in context referring to the heroes of the faith such as Moses, Abraham, Barak, and Samson, "39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." There is nothing in the text that implies an active awareness of the saints, imu the testimonies of their lives 11:4-38 is what is being talked about.

Hebrews 12:[1] And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

I see a full indication that they are going or about us.

If heroes of the faith already known to every Jewish believer of the late OT (lifetime of Our Lord up to Crucifixion) were mentioned, this indicates we too must see not just these heroes but also those of the NT in that cloud of witnesses.

And as per Luke 1:48, especially the Blessed Virgin Herself!

[hansgeorg]

I'm still not sure how saints know what people are thinking on earth without being something like omniscient.

What about being engaged in adoring One who really is that? And His telling them?

[hansgeorg]

Who knows what Bernadette Soubirous saw at Lourdes. .
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[hansgeorg]

Since the video is so long, I checked out the article it's based on. It's much shorter than the video IMO. It doesn't just talk about Medjugorie, it speaks of other appearances. Fatima being one of the more in depth ones(although they are all rather short).

Will see if I find anything new to defend in the Fatima case.

[hansgeorg]

Will see if I find anything new to defend in the Fatima case.

It did not go to the Fatima case at all. Or only when mentioning Muslims.

It had some faults about general Mariology, which I here refute, along with clarifying some otherwise misleading info:



Fatima was the name of Mohammed's daughter - the one who married Ali.

It was from then on a common girl's name among Muslims and is so to this day.

One of the very many women called Fatima was a Moorish princess who converted to Christianity, and Fatima in Portugal is named after her.



Neither She, nor Her Son are strictly speaking angels.

What is true of one is often in some way true of the other, since the Flesh of Christ is the Flesh of Mary. Only genetic difference being, He had* a Y-chromosome. Probably the same one which God took away from Adam's rib when creating Eve.

* Either "had" as "got" or has even now!



The Greek equivalent is found in II Peter, applied to Our Lord.

1 ) Job 11:17
Et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam; et cum te consumptum putaveris, orieris ut lucifer.

2 ) Isaias (Isaiah) 14:12
Quomodo cecidisti de caelo, Lucifer, qui mane oriebaris? corruisti in terram, qui vulnerabas gentes?

3 ) 2 Peter 1:19
Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem: cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris:

Note that the last reference also explains the liturgical song to "Lucifer" on Christmas day in the Vatican : "ille, inquam, Lucifer, qui nescit occasum" = namely THAT Morning Star, I am saying, which does NOT know of any setting (or falling down).



Since they are all approved by the Church, that means they cannot be heretical.



Does Jesus Christ remain Man after Ascension, or has He become "God only", as before Annunciation? If He is God and Man in Heaven, then She is the Mother of God (as Man) in Heaven.

"God has no mother. He is self existent (John 5:26)."

Do you believe the self existent Creator is the Father only, or do you believe it is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

In the latter case, since the Son has a Mother, the Creator has a Mother (which came to pass a few thousand years after He created, and who was a Mother He created Himself).

"The true Mary, while she was alive on earth, declared she was a sinner in need of a Savior (Luke 1:47)"

While declaring She needed a Saviour, She did not specify She was a sinner. Nor was She. The "enmities" in Genesis 3:15 stand for "total enmity", and the "blessed among women" stands for total victory. Even one sin, that would have made Her in some way a looser to Satan, but the angel declared Her, and Elisabeth declared Her and Her Son totally victorious - it was in that connection that She understood why She was being hailed as a winner, same words (though not with same reservations) as applied to Jael and Judith before Her. It was the words of Elisabeth which made Her realise that She and Her Son were "the woman and her seed" who would trample, mystically, the head of the Old Serpent.



True humans and truly immaculate : Adam and Eve up to eating the forbidden fruit, The Blessed Virgin and Her Son, without any loss of that state.

"If she had not been a true human then Jesus could not have died for our sins because only a blood sacrifice can atone for sin (Heb. 9:22), and Jesus died once for all to accomplish that (Heb. 7:27), being both fully human and fully the immaculate Son of God (Rom. 3:25)."

He was immaculate as Man, as well as being immaculate as God.

"If they meant that Mary had a part in the salvation plan of God by giving birth to Jesus that would be true in one sense, but she was not the cause of our salvation. That was the plan of God set forth from the beginning (Eph. 1:4)."

A plan in which were from the beginning mentioned "the woman and her seed". So, She is - under God as making this plan and under Her Seed as fulfilling it even more fully, Cause of Our Salvation.

"No one would advocate for Eve as she was deceived by the enemy and brought Adam into sin which has affected all mankind. There was an advocate there, that day, however and that was the enemy advocating for man to join him in the big lie and hell."

Eve was given the grace of repentance after her sin, due to this advocate making up by Her obedience what Eve had ruined by her disobedience. And of course probably with pious prayers for our first parents too.

"Mary was only a virgin till she gave birth to Jesus. After that she gave birth to sons and daughters (Mt 1:25, Mt 13:55-56. Acts 1:14)"

False readings of all these passages. I will be giving the Challoner note before my own comment, and will put my own in [square brackets]

Matthew 1:25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Till she brought forth her firstborn son: From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2.

Matthew 13:[55] Is not this the carpenter' s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude:

His brethren: These were the children of Mary the wife of Cleophas, sister to our Blessed Lady, (St. Matt. 27. 56; St. John 19. 25,) and therefore, according to the usual style of the Scripture, they were called brethren, that is, near relations to our Saviour.

[Or according to other reading explanation, children of St Joseph's first wife, if he was a widower when marrying Our Lady.]

Acts 1:[14] All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren

[Same explanation as above.]

"This is a blasphemous statement about Mary as only Jesus Christ can save (John 14:6). Salvation is by grace alone (sola gratia) through faith alone (sola fide) in Christ alone (sola Christus)."

This would make St Paul a blasphemer when he claimed to be in his body fulfilling "what is yet lacking in the sufferings of Christ". No, thanks.

Btw, "sola Christus" is bad Latin, since it would make Christ feminine.

"As mentioned above, the belief that Mary can forgive sins is heresy."

Where exactly is it claimed She can?

She can however pray for the conversion of sinners - and for the confutations of heresies. And does so.

"Therefore this cultic following of Mary is the very definition of heresy, which the apparitions of this demon have failed to correct."

Praising Her blessed is the definition of "all generations" (of the faithful), according to Luke 1:48.



Oh, there is a correlation.

She is a ladder on which God Himself climbed down to us!



If God was planning to make His own Mother Queen of Heaven, He must have hated Asherah as an insult to His own Mother.

"Mary was not a queen nor was she conceived without original sin. This is another damnable lie without any Biblical support."

Conceived without original sin, dealt with above, Genesis 3:15 and Luke 1:48.

As for Her being Queen where Her Son is King, that is how queenship always went in the Kingdom of Judah.



Is that title from Medjugorje?

I don't happen to recognise it from the Lauretan Litany.

"Mary is not a refuge of sinners as she is long dead and awaiting glorification with the believers on the day of the resurrection. The Psalms often speak of God being our refuge but there is no mention of Mary being our refuge anywhere in the Bible."

1) She is not dead, as St Thomas found out when going to Her tomb;
2) she is a refuge for faithful and for sinners before Her Son, as Queen Esther was of Israelites and could have been for Haman (had she wanted to).



Has it not occurred to you that children sit in the laps of their mothers? Ergo, she was the SEAT of Him who is literally Wisdom of the Father Himself.

"She is actually not a good model of wisdom to follow because she did not recognize who Jesus really was for a long time as evidenced when she wanted to interrupt His ministry along with His brothers (Mark 3:31-34)."

It doesn't say she wanted to, it says she came with them. If they were sons of St Joseph's first wife, they were old and strong enough to force a young stepmother to come along.

Marc 3:[34] And looking round about on them who sat about him, he saith: Behold my mother and my brethren. [35] For whosoever shall do the will of God, he is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Mother in singular, He must have given Her exactly one very discreet look - since He said She was doing / going to do the will of God.



And Song of Songs - thanks for recognising reference at least! - is also an allegory for the relationship of Mary to Her Son.

I will not go into specifics of Medjugorje.

[Marta]

Thanks. But how does praying to Mary square with 1 Timothy 2:5 that there is but one mediator between us and God? And there doesn't seem to be any direct support for praying to departed believers.

Heb.1:4-14

He was the superior to the angels, in proportion as he had received a more excellent rank than they. For to which of the angels did God ever say: "It is my Son that you are; it is I who this day have begotten you"? And again: "I will be to him a Father, and he will be to me a Son." And again, when he brings his honoured one into the world of men, he says: "And let all the angels of God bow down before him." As for the angels, he says: "He who makes his angels winds and his servants a flame of fire." But, as for the Son, he says: "God is your throne for ever and for ever, and the sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom. You have loved justice and hated lawlessness; therefore God has anointed you, even your God, with the oil of exultation above your fellows." And, "You in the beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands. They shall perish but you remain unalterable. All of them will grow old like a garment, and like a mantle you will fold them up and they will be changed. But you are ever yourself, and your years will not fail." To which of the angels did he ever say: "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool"? Are they not all ministering spirits, continually being despatched on service, for the sake of those who are destined to enter into possession of salvation?


In the previous passage the writer was concerned to prove the superiority of Jesus over all the prophets. Now he is concerned to prove his superiority over the angels. That he thinks it worth while to do this proves the place that belief in angels had in the thought of the Jews of his day. At this time it was on the increase. The reason was that men were more and more impressed with what is called the transcendence of God. They felt more and more the distance and the difference between God and man. The result was that they came to think of the angels as intermediaries between God and man. They came to believe that the angels bridged the gulf between God and man; that God spoke to man through the angels and the angels carried the prayers of man into the presence of God. We see this process particularly in one instance. In the Old Testament the law was given directly by God to Moses, without need of intermediary. But in New Testament times the Jews believed that God gave the law first to angels who then passed it on to Moses, direct communication between man and God being unthinkable (compare Ac.7:53; Gal.3:19).

[Marta]

I think we need to be aware of the shortcomings, and even dangers associated with human reasoning. Scripture gives us warnings:

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9, NASB)


Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Corinthians 1:20-21, NASB)

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. (1 Corinthians 2:12-13, NASB)

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS"; and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS." (1 Corinthians 3:18-20, NASB, quoting Psalm 94:11)

Heb.2:1-4


We must, therefore, with very special intensity pay attention to the things that we have heard. For, if the word which was spoken through the medium of the angels proved itself to be certified as valid, and if every transgression and disobedience of it received its just recompense, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, a salvation of such a kind that it had its origin in the words of the Lord, and was then guaranteed to us by those who had heard it from his lips, while God himself added his own witness to it by signs and wonders and manifold deeds of power, and by giving us each a share of the Holy Spirit, according as he willed it?

The writer is arguing from the less to the greater. He has in his mind two revelations. One was the revelation of the law which came by the medium of the angels, that is to say, the Ten Commandments. Now any breach of that law was followed by strict and just punishment. The other was the revelation which came through the medium of Jesus Christ, the Son. Because it came in and through the Son it was infinitely greater than the revelation of God's truth brought by the angels; and therefore any transgression of it must be followed by a far more terrible punishment. If men cannot neglect the revelation which came through the angels, how much less can they neglect the revelation which came through the Son? In the first verse there may be an even more vivid picture than there is in the translation which we have used. The two key words are prosechein (GSN4337) and pararruein (GSN3901). We have taken prosechein (GSN4337) to mean to pay attention to, which is one of its commonest meanings. Pararrein (GSN3901) is a word of many meanings. It is used of something flowing or slipping past; it can be used of a ring that has slipped off the finger; of a particle of food that has slipped down the wrong way; of a topic that has slipped into the conversation; of a point which has escaped someone in the course of an argument; of some fact that has slipped out of the mind; of something that has ebbed or leaked away. It is regularly used of something which has carelessly or thoughtlessly been allowed to become lost.

God's Angel to Lead - Exodus 23:20 19"You shall bring the choice first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God. "You are not to boil a young goat in the milk of its mother. 20"Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.

[Bill the Cat]

No they didn't.

[hansgeorg]

No they didn't.

I get my assurance from the declaration of the Church.

From the Church which Saint Paul declared pillar and foundation of truth.

You get yours from where?

[hansgeorg]

Well, you have underlined that She did the will of God.

And also that she could change God's own plan.

You might add that Christ's words to Her in Cana identfy Her as the woman of Genesis 3:15.

I might add that stilling the Son's wrath is sometimes part of that changing of God's plans.

Can Her Son be very angry? Look how He adressed the Pharisees. Look what He did twice about merchants in the temple.

Can the reasons She are called "Blessed" include any stilling of such wrath?

Yes, four women only in OT were called "Blessed". Two with moification "among women", those were Jael and Judith - victorious over enemies of Israel.

Two others : Ruth was called blessed because she took Obed.

Abigail was called Blessed - because she stilled the wrath of King David, so he refrained from shedding blood.

[hansgeorg]

I get my assurance from the declaration of the Church.

From the Church which Saint Paul declared pillar and foundation of truth.

A quote may be in order, here:

In accordance with the prudent practice of the Church in such matters, the ecclesiastical authorities remained reserved after the cycle of apparitions at Fatima ended. Finally, in October of 1930 the Bishop of Leiria-Fatima announced the results of the official canonical inquiry in a pastoral letter on the apparitions, which stated:

In virtue of considerations made known, and others which for reason of brevity we omit; humbly invoking the Divine Spirit and placing ourselves under the protection of the most Holy Virgin, and after hearing the opinions of our Rev. Advisors in this diocese, we hereby:

1. Declare worthy of belief, the visions of the shepherd children in the Cova da Iria, parish of Fatima, in this diocese, from 13 May to 13 October, 1917.

2. Permit officially the cult of Our Lady of Fatima.

Yet despite the fact that Fatima received official approval in 1930 and has been subsequently recognized by the Popes themselves (see "Approvals by the Popes"), there has nonetheless been a consistent attack on Fatima, especially from those within the Church. ...

http://www.fatima.org/essentials/opp...ovalattack.asp