Mary Mother of God

[robrecht]

Two natures in one person is a more basic doctrine than Mary as Mother of God.

But even then, Chalcedon was an attempt to express the Incarnation in the conceptual framework of one particular culture. It's not Scripture. The criticisms of Chalcedon that I've heard are about the adequacy of the concepts nature and person, not that they overemphasize Christ as divine. Even a relatively conservative NT scholar as N T Wright has issues with Chalcedon.

I've heard both criticisms from modern theologians, and I think they are both valid criticisms so I agree with you that dogmas defined in one culture and historical context with particular philosophical presuppositions and linguistic limitations do sometimes need to be reinterpreted in other contexts, but I would also say the same about scripture.

[hedrick]

I've heard both criticisms from modern theologians, and I think they are both valid criticisms so I agree with you that dogmas defined in one culture and historical context with particular philosophical presuppositions and linguistic limitations do sometimes need to be reinterpreted in other contexts, but I would also say the same about scripture.

I agree. However Scripture is one step nearer the original events. And God did choose 1st Cent Israel to come as a man. While parts of the NT have a background of Diaspora Judaism rather than Palestinian Judaism, they're close to the culture in which Jesus operated. But still, the Biblical authors thought of things differently than we would. So at times it's helpful to interpret things for our contemporaries. Just as it was in the 4th and 5th Cent.

And of course our interpretations should take the same concerns into account. We don't want 21st Cent equivalents of ancient heresies.

[Celebrian]

BTW, do you think Mary is omnipresent? How is it Mary can handle millions of prayers to her simultaneously? Millions at once? Every day. And we're to believe she passes those requests to Jesus? I cannot wrap my head around such and idea.

I think this is what makes me leery about praying to dead saints. Besides prayer having a worship association, it seems to require the dead to have God-like attributes in order to hear prayers, like omniscience or omnipresence. I think that helps make it look like idolatry.

[simplicio]

I think this is what makes me leery about praying to dead saints. Besides prayer having a worship association, it seems to require the dead to have God-like attributes in order to hear prayers, like omniscience or omnipresence. I think that helps make it look like idolatry.

But is it "G-d like attributes"? Heaven, and eternity, is not in time. Successive and simultaneous have meaning only in time. So maybe the atheist has a point when he argues that heaven would be dull because after a certain amount of time, you've seen all there is to see, done all there is to do. (if there is the simultaneous/successive distinctions we have on earth)

Some do offer the prayers of saints on earth according to the bible, and pass them on. How much time does that take, and does it take knowledge beyond the human nature in heaven?

Prayer certainly has a worship connotation, Catholics even call the Mass, or worship, the prayer of the Church. But we also pray in other ways, hopefully on a daily basis. So maybe prayer is inextricably linked to worship and that worship is extended. But should we only worship at specified times and specified places? We should for pray one another, and maybe that is worship. But I do see the requests for other Christians here on earth as a type of prayer, and maybe even worship; but why would it be idolatry? If your church has does pray for one another, is that idolatry? Or is the focus on the proper thing which is the Lord, when you ask others to pray and when you do pray for others?

This topic of prayer to those in heaven involves how we see those who are members of the Body of Christ, whether those in heaven fully participate as we do. It also involves how we view heaven, our ultimate end. Do we look at heaven in only earthly terms? It also involves the human nature, what we are, and how we function; does the way we function stay the same in heaven? Here on earth, our intellect is hampered by original sin, our will is weakened and wounded; in heaven we will operate as G-d intended, as Adam would have.

[Leonhard]

Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, is so old that we can't even document its beginnings. Unless one is committed to Sola Scriptura, and is ready to defend that, I don't see what one could have against prayers to the saints, and of all the saints, to the Mother of God. I have no doubt, and few Christians have had any doubt, that out of all those saved by Christ, she is the greatest of them all.

Source: St Augustine of Hippo

Blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay you with praise and thanksgiving for having rescued a fallen world by your generous consent? What songs of praise can our weak human nature offer in your honor, since it was through you that it has found the way to salvation? Accept then such poor thanks as we have to offer, unequal though they be to your merits. Receive our gratitude and obtain by your prayers the pardon of our sins. Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven and enable them to bring about our peace with God.
May the sins we penitently bring before Almighty God through you be pardoned. May what we beg with confidence be granted through you. Take our offerings and grant our request; obtain pardon for what we fear, for you are the only hope of sinners. We hope to obtain the forgiveness of our sins through you. Blessed Lady, in you is our hope of reward.

Holy Mary, help the miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the sorrowful, pray for your people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God. May all who venerate you, feel now your help and protection. Be ready to help us when we pray, and bring back to us the answers to our prayers. Make it your continual care to pray for the People of God, for you were blessed by God and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world, Who lives and reigns forever.

© Copyright Original Source

[Papa Zoom]

Some of the oldest traditional interpretations of the Bible's first verse are contradictory. Whose interpretation do you accept as definitive or authoritative? Intercessory prayer is sometimes considered one of the lower or more shallow forms of prayer, 'though I don't mean this in a esoteric or elitist sense, while the deeper sense of unitive prayer is a kind of loving contemplation that doesn't worry so much about rational questions of praying to or agreeing with; it is simply being with God and each other in trust and openness.

I wasn't aware there were levels of praying. How is intercessory prayer shallow? I would think that such is of great value. Aren't we called to this very thing? And can you define unitive prayer (is that the same as corporate prayer?). Thanks.

[Papa Zoom]

God speaks to us through others. Loving others is part of loving God. Sometimes we need an example of how others have loved God with their whole life for us to figure out where the part of us is that can figure out how we can love God in our own unique way. Didn't Jesus say something about his being there where two or more are gathered in his name? Prayer is a communal thing even when you're alone. In prayer, we're never alone, even if we feel that way.

I totally agree with you on this.

[Papa Zoom]

This has nothing to with prayer to the saints.

They do? Where?

Probably my favorite second-hand account of healing through the intercession of Mary is in connection with a myrrh-streaming icon of Mary (which is itself miraculous; having seen it closely several times, I can attest that it's no parlor trick). A Muslim man came to a session the priest-guardian of the icon set up to answer questions about it, and vociferously denounced the icon as blasphemous to Allah. After the session, the attendees had the opportunity to venerate the icon. When the Muslim man approached the icon with them, people were very cautious because they weren't sure what he would do. He stood in front of the icon for a long time, then suddenly broke down in tears. When he finally turned from the icon to face the priest, all he said was, "Jesus is Lord." He's subsequently been baptized. At the same time, a dangerous heart condition (he had been on six medications to deal with it) was completely healed (the doctor, after checking and re-checking, said he had the heart of a normal 20-year old). I'll leave it to you to decide which is the greater miracle.


Why even bother with asking others to pray for you? For that matter, why even bother praying to Jesus? It's not like He needs us to tell Him what we need or want.

I have heard of such healings and do find them interesting. I do think there are many mysteries of God happening all around us. As for bothering to ask others to pray for you and why: Because that we are told explicitly to do in God's Word.

[Papa Zoom]

I'm not sure of the question but to be absent from the body is to have one's earthly body dead and there the soul is separated from the body. When that happens, for the Christian, they are in the presence of the Lord at that very moment.

First off, I would like to thank you, this topic is a controversial one, which highlights the difference in Catholic and Protestant thought, and you have maintained a Christian demeanor in your discussion, and have remained respectful throughout. I skimmed over my earlier answers, and I admit that I was expecting the worst when I entered this discussion, I was wrong.

I view the Body of Christ as a living thing, a spiritual organism, which is living and growing, and has divine grace keeping it alive, just as it is a grace that the Father holds us all in biological existence (G-d holds us all in existence, even the universe through an act of His will). And the Body of Christ contains all Christians. So I can and do go to other Christians on this side of the grave to pray for me and to render assistance, that has effectiveness because they are part of the one body. But I see those beyond the grave and in heaven as full members of the one body; and the duty to care for one another even extends to them.

We, as Christians are called to care for one another, which includes both body and soul. So when a natural disaster strikes, church groups are at the forefront in providing aid. The Christians on this side of the grave are in a unique position to offer assistance to other Christians (and of course non Christians). We could go directly to G-d and ask for assistance, but it is a common practice to have an extra collection or call for volunteers. That is the church in action on this earth, and providing aid for the physical needs.

But we also pray for the the soul when we pray that someone be conformed to Christ, the conformation occurs in the soul, not the physical body. Spiritual needs are for the soul, and are every bit as important (maybe more so) as physical needs. Those on this side of the grave should pray for and care for the soul of others in need (and for strengthening the brethren also). Those in heaven are also part of the church.

I see going to those in heaven in the same way as I see going to those on earth. I may go to those on earth and that is not considered avoiding G-d. I still need to pray to G-d. I also go to those in heaven to offer assistance. Those in heaven can offer assistance, their assistance may take a different form than those on earth. That also is the church in action. So care of the physical body and physical needs is a responsibility, care for the soul and spiritual needs is also a responsibility of Christians, since they are members of the one Body of Christ. I do go to G-d, I also go to the members of the Body of Christ. It is common, even among Protestants, to go to the pastor (a man) to enlist members of the Body for either physical needs or spiritual needs without viewing it as an end run around G-d. The major difference is that I will also enlist the helo of those in heaven.

Is what we know about the bible really supported by the bible? 2 Cor 5:8 is often used to support the idea of absent from the body, present with the Lord. But does that passage really say that? Do a google search on that phrase, you will be surprised. Sunday worship is another example. I have heard the arguments for and against Sunday worship and I am not convinced that it can be supported biblicaly. Yet another example is the canon of scripture, which books should be included in the bible. Not sure that any one canon can be supported from the bible, each groups points to the influence of the Holy Spirit. I believe as you that Sunday is what the Lord wants us to come together to worship, that when we die the soul immediately is present to the Lord. I am sure we differ on the number of books, I am Catholic and say that you bible is 7 books short, you say I have 7 too many. But each of these three position are difficult to support using the bible, other arguments are brought in.

Do a google search on 2Cor5:8. Which is why I say that how we view the faith is heavily influenced by how we are taught. That passage says something different than what is commonly ascribed to it. If we can be wrong about a passage which we have read a thousand times, is it possible that we might be wrong about other things?

This discussion on the communion of saints and praying to the dead depends on how we view the church, the body of Christ, human anthropology (what the nature of man is), and even what the effects of salvation are on the human person. How we view each of these heavily influences this topic. Maybe that is a barrier to communication between catholics and protestants. I will start from the theology and move to the bible passage, generally the protestant will start with the bible passage and move to theology. Yet both see both their theology as fully incorporating the bible, and the bible as consistent with their theology. But all points of the theology have to be consistent and coherent (logically connected); it is theology which is supposed to correspond to the whole of reality.

You offer perspectives on things I haven't really considered before. We do indeed see through a glass dimly. The mysteries of God continue to amaze me. I was not brought up to appreciate the larger Community of Saints and the Great Cloud of Witnesses as some here apparently have. This has been, at least in the experiences I've had, a deficit in my spiritual growth. While I'm still troubled with the idea of praying for to the dead, I have no doubt that the departed Saints are actively a part of the Body of Christ. How exactly that looks on the other side of the grave I do not know. But the book of Revelation does give some clues I believe. I suspect there are greater mysteries of God at play of which we are totally unaware.

[Papa Zoom]

I think this is what makes me leery about praying to dead saints. Besides prayer having a worship association, it seems to require the dead to have God-like attributes in order to hear prayers, like omniscience or omnipresence. I think that helps make it look like idolatry.

Yes that's kinda where I fall on this topic as well. At least those are the questions and objections that keep surfacing for me.

[Papa Zoom]

This topic of prayer to those in heaven involves how we see those who are members of the Body of Christ, whether those in heaven fully participate as we do. It also involves how we view heaven, our ultimate end. Do we look at heaven in only earthly terms? It also involves the human nature, what we are, and how we function; does the way we function stay the same in heaven? Here on earth, our intellect is hampered by original sin, our will is weakened and wounded; in heaven we will operate as G-d intended, as Adam would have.

This is the concept that I had never really though over before. I do think this is the proper way to look at it but I don't know if the implications of the above logically lead us to praying to the dead (yet alive spiritually) who have gone on before us.

[robrecht]

I wasn't aware there were levels of praying. How is intercessory prayer shallow? I would think that such is of great value. Aren't we called to this very thing? And can you define unitive prayer (is that the same as corporate prayer?). Thanks.

I think we are absolutely called to intercede for others in prayer, as in everyday life. I don't mean to imply that intercessory prayer is shallow or bad in any way, but it may be less related to deeper or pure worship. Prayer is being in presence of God at whatever level of ourselves we bring to prayer. Thinking of our needs or those of others and asking God for help for ourselves and for others is good but it may also be somewhat distracted and not uniting deeper parts of ourselves to the mystery of God. Unitive prayer is the latter, more contemplative, less rational and specific, more mystical perhaps. Monks and nuns that devote their whole lives to prayer sometimes speak or write about this kind of prayer, as does St Paul in Romans, ie, when the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings.

[Pentecost]

Just a comment because someone brought up the cloud of witnesses to me just yesterday, the witnesses being referred to are in context referring to the heroes of the faith such as Moses, Abraham, Barak, and Samson, "39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." There is nothing in the text that implies an active awareness of the saints, imu the testimonies of their lives 11:4-38 is what is being talked about.

[Celebrian]

But is it "G-d like attributes"? Heaven, and eternity, is not in time. Successive and simultaneous have meaning only in time. So maybe the atheist has a point when he argues that heaven would be dull because after a certain amount of time, you've seen all there is to see, done all there is to do. (if there is the simultaneous/successive distinctions we have on earth)

So, are you saying that since saints in heaven are outside of time, that solves the problem of listening to multiple people at once? I'm still not sure how saints know what people are thinking on earth without being something like omniscient.

Some do offer the prayers of saints on earth according to the bible, and pass them on. How much time does that take, and does it take knowledge beyond the human nature in heaven?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

Prayer certainly has a worship connotation, Catholics even call the Mass, or worship, the prayer of the Church. But we also pray in other ways, hopefully on a daily basis. So maybe prayer is inextricably linked to worship and that worship is extended. But should we only worship at specified times and specified places? We should for pray one another, and maybe that is worship. But I do see the requests for other Christians here on earth as a type of prayer, and maybe even worship; but why would it be idolatry? If your church has does pray for one another, is that idolatry? Or is the focus on the proper thing which is the Lord, when you ask others to pray and when you do pray for others?

When I pray for others, I am praying directly to God. If you pray to a saint, to me that seems like idolatry because you are appear to be worshipping the saint. Now I realize that you see this differently, the same as asking a person on earth to pray for you, but I have trouble seeing it that way. I also don't see other Christians on earth asking for prayer as prayer.

[One Bad Pig]

I think this is what makes me leery about praying to dead saints. Besides prayer having a worship association, it seems to require the dead to have God-like attributes in order to hear prayers, like omniscience or omnipresence. I think that helps make it look like idolatry.

Prayer can have a worship association, but it does not necessarily mean that. It is only within Protestantism that prayer in a religious context is equated to worship due God alone. And as far as I can tell from Orthodox experience, prayer to the saints is facilitated by the Holy Spirit, who is omniscient and omnipresent.