Originally posted by hedrick
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Mary Mother of God
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אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI've heard both criticisms from modern theologians, and I think they are both valid criticisms so I agree with you that dogmas defined in one culture and historical context with particular philosophical presuppositions and linguistic limitations do sometimes need to be reinterpreted in other contexts, but I would also say the same about scripture.
And of course our interpretations should take the same concerns into account. We don't want 21st Cent equivalents of ancient heresies.Last edited by hedrick; 10-17-2015, 04:30 PM.
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Originally posted by Papa Zoom View PostBTW, do you think Mary is omnipresent? How is it Mary can handle millions of prayers to her simultaneously? Millions at once? Every day. And we're to believe she passes those requests to Jesus? I cannot wrap my head around such and idea.
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Originally posted by Celebrian View PostI think this is what makes me leery about praying to dead saints. Besides prayer having a worship association, it seems to require the dead to have God-like attributes in order to hear prayers, like omniscience or omnipresence. I think that helps make it look like idolatry.
Some do offer the prayers of saints on earth according to the bible, and pass them on. How much time does that take, and does it take knowledge beyond the human nature in heaven?
Prayer certainly has a worship connotation, Catholics even call the Mass, or worship, the prayer of the Church. But we also pray in other ways, hopefully on a daily basis. So maybe prayer is inextricably linked to worship and that worship is extended. But should we only worship at specified times and specified places? We should for pray one another, and maybe that is worship. But I do see the requests for other Christians here on earth as a type of prayer, and maybe even worship; but why would it be idolatry? If your church has does pray for one another, is that idolatry? Or is the focus on the proper thing which is the Lord, when you ask others to pray and when you do pray for others?
This topic of prayer to those in heaven involves how we see those who are members of the Body of Christ, whether those in heaven fully participate as we do. It also involves how we view heaven, our ultimate end. Do we look at heaven in only earthly terms? It also involves the human nature, what we are, and how we function; does the way we function stay the same in heaven? Here on earth, our intellect is hampered by original sin, our will is weakened and wounded; in heaven we will operate as G-d intended, as Adam would have.
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Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, is so old that we can't even document its beginnings. Unless one is committed to Sola Scriptura, and is ready to defend that, I don't see what one could have against prayers to the saints, and of all the saints, to the Mother of God. I have no doubt, and few Christians have had any doubt, that out of all those saved by Christ, she is the greatest of them all.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostSome of the oldest traditional interpretations of the Bible's first verse are contradictory. Whose interpretation do you accept as definitive or authoritative? Intercessory prayer is sometimes considered one of the lower or more shallow forms of prayer, 'though I don't mean this in a esoteric or elitist sense, while the deeper sense of unitive prayer is a kind of loving contemplation that doesn't worry so much about rational questions of praying to or agreeing with; it is simply being with God and each other in trust and openness.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostGod speaks to us through others. Loving others is part of loving God. Sometimes we need an example of how others have loved God with their whole life for us to figure out where the part of us is that can figure out how we can love God in our own unique way. Didn't Jesus say something about his being there where two or more are gathered in his name? Prayer is a communal thing even when you're alone. In prayer, we're never alone, even if we feel that way.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThis has nothing to with prayer to the saints.
They do? Where?
Probably my favorite second-hand account of healing through the intercession of Mary is in connection with a myrrh-streaming icon of Mary (which is itself miraculous; having seen it closely several times, I can attest that it's no parlor trick). A Muslim man came to a session the priest-guardian of the icon set up to answer questions about it, and vociferously denounced the icon as blasphemous to Allah. After the session, the attendees had the opportunity to venerate the icon. When the Muslim man approached the icon with them, people were very cautious because they weren't sure what he would do. He stood in front of the icon for a long time, then suddenly broke down in tears. When he finally turned from the icon to face the priest, all he said was, "Jesus is Lord." He's subsequently been baptized. At the same time, a dangerous heart condition (he had been on six medications to deal with it) was completely healed (the doctor, after checking and re-checking, said he had the heart of a normal 20-year old). I'll leave it to you to decide which is the greater miracle.
Why even bother with asking others to pray for you? For that matter, why even bother praying to Jesus? It's not like He needs us to tell Him what we need or want.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostI'm not sure of the question but to be absent from the body is to have one's earthly body dead and there the soul is separated from the body. When that happens, for the Christian, they are in the presence of the Lord at that very moment.
First off, I would like to thank you, this topic is a controversial one, which highlights the difference in Catholic and Protestant thought, and you have maintained a Christian demeanor in your discussion, and have remained respectful throughout. I skimmed over my earlier answers, and I admit that I was expecting the worst when I entered this discussion, I was wrong.
I view the Body of Christ as a living thing, a spiritual organism, which is living and growing, and has divine grace keeping it alive, just as it is a grace that the Father holds us all in biological existence (G-d holds us all in existence, even the universe through an act of His will). And the Body of Christ contains all Christians. So I can and do go to other Christians on this side of the grave to pray for me and to render assistance, that has effectiveness because they are part of the one body. But I see those beyond the grave and in heaven as full members of the one body; and the duty to care for one another even extends to them.
We, as Christians are called to care for one another, which includes both body and soul. So when a natural disaster strikes, church groups are at the forefront in providing aid. The Christians on this side of the grave are in a unique position to offer assistance to other Christians (and of course non Christians). We could go directly to G-d and ask for assistance, but it is a common practice to have an extra collection or call for volunteers. That is the church in action on this earth, and providing aid for the physical needs.
But we also pray for the the soul when we pray that someone be conformed to Christ, the conformation occurs in the soul, not the physical body. Spiritual needs are for the soul, and are every bit as important (maybe more so) as physical needs. Those on this side of the grave should pray for and care for the soul of others in need (and for strengthening the brethren also). Those in heaven are also part of the church.
I see going to those in heaven in the same way as I see going to those on earth. I may go to those on earth and that is not considered avoiding G-d. I still need to pray to G-d. I also go to those in heaven to offer assistance. Those in heaven can offer assistance, their assistance may take a different form than those on earth. That also is the church in action. So care of the physical body and physical needs is a responsibility, care for the soul and spiritual needs is also a responsibility of Christians, since they are members of the one Body of Christ. I do go to G-d, I also go to the members of the Body of Christ. It is common, even among Protestants, to go to the pastor (a man) to enlist members of the Body for either physical needs or spiritual needs without viewing it as an end run around G-d. The major difference is that I will also enlist the helo of those in heaven.
Is what we know about the bible really supported by the bible? 2 Cor 5:8 is often used to support the idea of absent from the body, present with the Lord. But does that passage really say that? Do a google search on that phrase, you will be surprised. Sunday worship is another example. I have heard the arguments for and against Sunday worship and I am not convinced that it can be supported biblicaly. Yet another example is the canon of scripture, which books should be included in the bible. Not sure that any one canon can be supported from the bible, each groups points to the influence of the Holy Spirit. I believe as you that Sunday is what the Lord wants us to come together to worship, that when we die the soul immediately is present to the Lord. I am sure we differ on the number of books, I am Catholic and say that you bible is 7 books short, you say I have 7 too many. But each of these three position are difficult to support using the bible, other arguments are brought in.
Do a google search on 2Cor5:8. Which is why I say that how we view the faith is heavily influenced by how we are taught. That passage says something different than what is commonly ascribed to it. If we can be wrong about a passage which we have read a thousand times, is it possible that we might be wrong about other things?
This discussion on the communion of saints and praying to the dead depends on how we view the church, the body of Christ, human anthropology (what the nature of man is), and even what the effects of salvation are on the human person. How we view each of these heavily influences this topic. Maybe that is a barrier to communication between catholics and protestants. I will start from the theology and move to the bible passage, generally the protestant will start with the bible passage and move to theology. Yet both see both their theology as fully incorporating the bible, and the bible as consistent with their theology. But all points of the theology have to be consistent and coherent (logically connected); it is theology which is supposed to correspond to the whole of reality.
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Originally posted by Celebrian View PostI think this is what makes me leery about praying to dead saints. Besides prayer having a worship association, it seems to require the dead to have God-like attributes in order to hear prayers, like omniscience or omnipresence. I think that helps make it look like idolatry.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostThis topic of prayer to those in heaven involves how we see those who are members of the Body of Christ, whether those in heaven fully participate as we do. It also involves how we view heaven, our ultimate end. Do we look at heaven in only earthly terms? It also involves the human nature, what we are, and how we function; does the way we function stay the same in heaven? Here on earth, our intellect is hampered by original sin, our will is weakened and wounded; in heaven we will operate as G-d intended, as Adam would have.
This is the concept that I had never really though over before. I do think this is the proper way to look at it but I don't know if the implications of the above logically lead us to praying to the dead (yet alive spiritually) who have gone on before us.
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Originally posted by Papa Zoom View PostI wasn't aware there were levels of praying. How is intercessory prayer shallow? I would think that such is of great value. Aren't we called to this very thing? And can you define unitive prayer (is that the same as corporate prayer?). Thanks.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Just a comment because someone brought up the cloud of witnesses to me just yesterday, the witnesses being referred to are in context referring to the heroes of the faith such as Moses, Abraham, Barak, and Samson, "39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." There is nothing in the text that implies an active awareness of the saints, imu the testimonies of their lives 11:4-38 is what is being talked about.Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostBut is it "G-d like attributes"? Heaven, and eternity, is not in time. Successive and simultaneous have meaning only in time. So maybe the atheist has a point when he argues that heaven would be dull because after a certain amount of time, you've seen all there is to see, done all there is to do. (if there is the simultaneous/successive distinctions we have on earth)
Originally posted by simplicio View PostSome do offer the prayers of saints on earth according to the bible, and pass them on. How much time does that take, and does it take knowledge beyond the human nature in heaven?
Originally posted by simplicio View PostPrayer certainly has a worship connotation, Catholics even call the Mass, or worship, the prayer of the Church. But we also pray in other ways, hopefully on a daily basis. So maybe prayer is inextricably linked to worship and that worship is extended. But should we only worship at specified times and specified places? We should for pray one another, and maybe that is worship. But I do see the requests for other Christians here on earth as a type of prayer, and maybe even worship; but why would it be idolatry? If your church has does pray for one another, is that idolatry? Or is the focus on the proper thing which is the Lord, when you ask others to pray and when you do pray for others?
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Originally posted by Celebrian View PostI think this is what makes me leery about praying to dead saints. Besides prayer having a worship association, it seems to require the dead to have God-like attributes in order to hear prayers, like omniscience or omnipresence. I think that helps make it look like idolatry.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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