Derail thread on Mary

[Leonhard]

But you do.

In what way? You insinuate that Catholics worship the Virgin Mary, and I do the only appropriate thing I ask for concrete examples, after having explained the nature of Marian devotion. You don't give that. I'm trying to be more gracious here than is warranted. I could have gone simple "This is no argument." and have been fully justified.

I suspect if I give concrete examples, they'll be handwaved away as mere exceptions. And when I list general forms of increasingly idolisation you ask for concrete examples. Very well: yourself.

Do you consider what St. John Paul II wrote about the virgin Mary to be idolisation. That is, do you think that he considered Mary to have dignities and powers in her own nature, that belongs solely to God, or that this was implied through his writings?

But as you say, "this is going to come down to a discussion of Tradition".

Ultimately yes.

[Paprika]

In what way? You insinuate that Catholics worship the Virgin Mary, and I do the only appropriate thing I ask for concrete examples, after having explained the nature of Marian devotion. You don't give that. I'm trying to be more gracious here than is warranted. I could have gone simple "This is no argument." and have been fully justified.

We can do JPP II if you like. But as you've said, Marian devotion is central to Catholicism and I don't expect any traditional Catholic to budge.

Do you consider what St. John Paul II wrote about the virgin Mary to be idolisation. That is, do you think that he considered Mary to have dignities and powers in her own nature, that belongs solely to God, or that this was implied through his writings?

Idolatry isn't merely ascribing the dignities and powers that belongs solely to God to something else. But yes.

Ultimately yes.

As above, you're not going to budge. So rational dialogue, if you insist, but since the starting points are different we'll never agree. So to save time and effort on both our parts we can skip that and move on to rhetoric.

[Leonhard]

I've opened another thread in which you can explain what you mean by idolatry.

[robrecht]

T

If you think that is what that song means, you are mistaken. Unless you think that the saints in the presence of the Lord are also praying to us just as you pray to them. Frankly, I haven't had any dead saints talking to me lately. Never, actually.

That song, all the way through, IS referring to the whole body of Christ, those living, and those in glory. The very first line is "The church's one foundation is JESUS CHRIST HER LORD". Emphasis mine. No Mary in there, anywhere. No mention of her in the entire hymn.

The "mystic, sweet communion" we share with those in God's presence is simply that we are all part of the body of CHRIST (not Mary), and we desire to be with them in heaven. Singing praises to Him, not worrying about what is occurring on the earth.

I do not pretend to really know in any great detail what life is like in heaven, nor would I try to prove anything from one of your favorite hymns. I am not sure exactly what the nature of our mystical communion with the saints entails, but I see no biblical or other reason to exclude the fact that the saints in heaven love and care about us. Do you?

Do you believe, along with the early church, that in the liturgy we pray and worship God together with all the angels and saints?

[Paprika]

I've opened another thread in which you can explain what you mean by idolatry.

The edit for clarification may help.

[Pentecost]

Wait, are people denying Mary as Theokotos?

And denying veneration of the saints without appealing to an orthodox form of soul-sleep?

My fellow Protestants, if you are attacking the official RCC positions I cannot be in agreement with you. On the other hand if you are attacking the tendency of RCC lay people to know nothing of what the RCC teaches, then you have a bit of a point. I have met multiple Catholics who I know to have saving faith and they all either deny some of the teachings at issue, or hold to a proper and traditional teaching on these beliefs.

[Leonhard]

The edit for clarification may help.

I'm not sure what you changed.

[Paprika]

I'm not sure what you changed.

'what belongs solely to God' -> 'the dignities and powers that belongs solely to God'.
I apologise for the error; watching a show late at night while posting isn't the best condition for accuracy.

[Leonhard]

'what belongs solely to God' -> 'the dignities and powers that belongs solely to God'.
I apologise for the error; watching a show late at night while posting isn't the best condition for accuracy.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...-this-idolatry

[Paprika]

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...-this-idolatry

I have corrected my mistype, and as far as I see there isn't any disagreement on what the definition of idolatry is.

[Leonhard]

I have corrected my mistype, and as far as I see there isn't any disagreement on what the definition of idolatry is.

I'm not sure we're in an entire agreement. You end it on a 'but yes', yet you also say that its not merely attributing 'the dignities and powers that belongs solely to God' to a creature. Or is that exactly what you're saying. I'm just confused here.

[Leonhard]

This is the usual definition I go by.

Catholic Encyclopedia
"Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. St. Thomas (Summa Theol., II-II, q. xciv) treats of it as a species of the genus superstition, which is a vice opposed to the virtue of religion and consists in giving Divine honour (cultus) to things that are not God, or to God Himself in a wrong way. The specific note of idolatry is its direct opposition to the primary object of Divine worship; it bestows on a creature the reverence due to God alone."

[Paprika]

I'm not sure we're in an entire agreement. You end it on a 'but yes', yet you also say that its not merely attributing 'the dignities and powers that belongs solely to God' to a creature. Or is that exactly what you're saying. I'm just confused here.

Idolatry is first and foremost not only limited to ascription but action. Secondly it can can also be false attribution of other things not dignities or powers - worship, for example.

[Leonhard]

Idolatry is first and foremost not only limited to ascription but action. Secondly it can can also be false attribution of other things not dignities or powers - worship, for example.

If you want to keep up this discussion, I'll say there's another thread for it now.

[Paprika]

If you want to keep up this discussion

I don't, really. As before I'd rather skip to the rhetoric.