Plotting Nicea III Could Be Pope Francis's Masterstroke

[Darth Executor]

Well, it 'was' pretty fricken dumb.

No, it makes perfect sense. If you want to see true, spectacular dumb, there's a post in this thread by some idiot who thinks the sexual revolution made gays and pedos want to become Catholic priests. Now THAT's what I call dumb.

[Darth Executor]

Well, pedophilia and ephebophilia are both the same thing, essentially.

[TimelessTheist]

Yup. Being attracted to post-pubescent boys is still pedophilia if they're underage.

[TimelessTheist]

No, it makes perfect sense. If you want to see true, spectacular dumb, there's a post in this thread by some idiot who thinks the sexual revolution made gays and pedos want to become Catholic priests. Now THAT's what I call dumb.

Could you actually explain what it meant, then?

[Darth Executor]

Yup. Being attracted to post-pubescent boys is still pedophilia if they're underage.

No, it's not. Pedophilia is a mental disorder (like homosexuality) where people are exclusively attracted to children. Ephebophilia OTOH isn't. I'm skeptical that it's even really a thing. Children have no secondary sexual characteristics (unlike teens). Being attracted to secondary sexual characteristics is perfectly normal whereas being attracted to prepubescent children isn't. The brain doesn't magically know the age of the other person and attraction then kicks in on that basis. Attraction kicks in, at least partially, on pattern recognition. Talk of ephebophilia is superfluous and an unnecessary distraction. What most of the priests who molested children actually were is gay men having sex with teenage boys (often consensually).

For example:

http://www.archmil.org/reorg/bardate...ders/Flynt.htm

Flynt had attempted to seduce the groom after the rehearsal party.

...

In May, 2002, the Milwaukee County District Attorney advised the archdiocese that his office had opened an investigation into claims of sexual abuse of a minor by Flynt. The individual brought the complaint to the DA stating that at age 11, with the consent of his parents, he had started staying overnight at the rectory with Flynt. This arrangement continued for nine years. It was reported that they slept in the same bed and that Flynt engaged in genital fondling with the individual.

[Darth Executor]

Could you actually explain what it meant, then?

nah

[robrecht]

Well, pedophilia and ephebophilia are both the same thing, essentially. Even if the boy is post-pubescent, he's still underage.

Both are immoral, illegal, and unethical, but the latter may be more of an issue with an all male celibate priesthood.

Still, though, the main argument against this is that pedophilia among the Catholic clergy is at a significantly lower rate than the general populace, so the argument that celibacy encourages ephebophilia doesn't hold much water.

As for the studies, here's one:

http://www.newsweek.com/priests-comm...er-males-70625

When I click on your link, all I see is this headline: "Priests Commit No More Abuse Than Other Males, By Pat Wingert, Filed: 4/7/10 at 8:00 PM | Updated: 4/19/10 at 7:59 PM" Can you describe some of the content, particularly with respect to my earlier questions.

As for the 50% of gay priests, I have to say, that doesn't sound realistic at all, though, as you said, you don't really have any data to back that statistic up.

It is not intended as an accurate statistic, just an attempt to be minimally incorrect in an area that the church refuses to talk about.

[TimelessTheist]

When I click on your link, all I see is this headline: "Priests Commit No More Abuse Than Other Males, By Pat Wingert, Filed: 4/7/10 at 8:00 PM | Updated: 4/19/10 at 7:59 PM" Can you describe some of the content, particularly with respect to my earlier questions.

My bad, it looks like they only give you five free articles. Still though, it's also fact that pedophilia rates among the clergy are at a significantly lower rate than the general populace. This is proven in the most comprehensive study on the subject to date (though it was already proven in other studies before it), the book "Pedophiles and Priests" by scholar Philip Jenkins. It affects only an extremely, extremely small minority of the entire priesthood, 0.3% of the modern clergy, according to the study.

It is not intended as an accurate statistic, just an attempt to be minimally incorrect in an area that the church refuses to talk about.

Saying that half the clergy is gay is hardly "minimally" incorrect.

[robrecht]

My bad, it looks like they only give you five free articles. Still though, it's also fact that pedophilia rates among the clergy are at a significantly lower rate than the general populace. This is proven in the most comprehensive study on the subject to date (though it was already proven in other studies before it), the book "Pedophiles and Priests" by scholar Philip Jenkins. It affects only an extremely, extremely small minority of the entire priesthood, 0.3% of the modern clergy, according to the study.

Saying that half the clergy is gay is hardly "minimally" incorrect.

If you have actual data on homosexuality among priests and religious, please share, along with the methodology and presuppositions. Otherwise, all we have is anecdotal experience and personal estimates. If we guess 50% and it is really 99% or 1%, then we're off by no more than 49%. To get better odds than that would require that people in the church actually start discussing this question honestly and openly.

So it sounds like the studies you're referring to discuss pedophilia in the technical sense, which is estimated based on what, arrests, convictions, accusations?

[TimelessTheist]

If you have actual data on homosexuality among priests and religious, please share, along with the methodology and presuppositions. Otherwise, all we have is anecdotal experience and personal estimates. If we guess 50% and it is really 99% or 1%, then we're off by no more than 49%. To get better odds than that would require that people in the church actually start discussing this question honestly and openly.

So it sounds like the studies you're referring to discuss pedophilia in the technical sense, which is estimated based on what, arrests, convictions, accusations?

If you have actual data on homosexuality among priests and religious, please share, along with the methodology and presuppositions. Otherwise, all we have is anecdotal experience and personal estimates. If we guess 50% and it is really 99% or 1%, then we're off by no more than 49%. To get better odds than that would require that people in the church actually start discussing this question honestly and openly.

I really don't see a reason to, other than to give the LGBT something to whine about. I'm just saying that Catholic clergy isn't exactly the thing you think of when you think "gay people".

So it sounds like the studies you're referring to discuss pedophilia in the technical sense, which is estimated based on what, arrests, convictions, accusations?

Convictions.

[robrecht]

I really don't see a reason to, other than to give the LGBT something to whine about. I'm just saying that Catholic clergy isn't exactly the thing you think of when you think "gay people".

Maybe things have changed since the 1980s & '90s, but it was that way back then. I mentioned one religious who estimated that his province was 80% gay. As a dumb Midwestern hick, I entered religious life thinking that gays should not be accepted as candidates for priesthood or religious life, and believed that they were, of course, not accepted, but I eventually realized that this was a very narrow minded and uncharitable attitude of mine as I realized how many of my confreres were gay and very good and spiritual people. But eventually, I had to wonder what was I doing there? Religious communities shouldn't be gay spiritual clubs, or, even if there was a place for such a thing, it certainly was not where I belonged.

Convictions.

Convictions for pedophilia, ephebophilia, or both? Isn't it so sad that even one priest has ever been convicted of such horrible crimes. Concitions over what time period? Until recently, there were so many cases of pedophiles that were never brought to trial and convicted so, depending on the time frame, that too could skew the results. I'm not saying the results are skewed. I hope they're not, but still, how terrible it was that so many despicable criminals were protected and abetted by the church hierarchy, all in the name of not causing scandal. I would rather choose priests from among happily married men and women who have demonstrated a holy life of service. If priests were predominantly chosen from among married people, there would be so many to choose from, mature normal people who had already demonstrated maturity, talent and leadership skills.

[TimelessTheist]

Maybe things have changed since the 1980s & '90s, but it was that way back then. I mentioned one religious who estimated that his province was 80% gay. As a dumb Midwestern hick, I entered religious life thinking that gays should not be accepted as candidates for priesthood or religious life, and believed that they were, of course, not accepted, but I eventually realized that this was a very narrow minded and uncharitable attitude of mine as I realized how many of my confreres were gay and very good and spiritual people. But eventually, I had to wonder what was I doing there? Religious communities shouldn't be gay spiritual clubs, or, even if there was a place for such a thing, it certainly was not where I belonged.

Well, as long as they don't engage in the acts, I don't see a problem with it. However, saying that fifty percent of the clergy is gay, is just absurd.

Convictions for pedophilia, ephebophilia, or both? Isn't it so sad that even one priest has ever been convicted of such horrible crimes. Concitions over what time period? Until recently, there were so many cases of pedophiles that were never brought to trial and convicted so, depending on the time frame, that too could skew the results. I'm not saying the results are skewed. I hope they're not, but still, how terrible it was that so many despicable criminals were protected and abetted by the church hierarchy, all in the name of not causing scandal. I would rather choose priests from among happily married men and women who have demonstrated a holy life of service. If priests were predominantly chosen from among married people, there would be so many to choose from, mature normal people who had already demonstrated maturity, talent and leadership skills.

many cases of pedophiles that were never brought to trail and convicted

I have a feeling I know what you're talking about, but still, source?

how terrible it was that so many despicable criminals were protected and abetted by the church hierarchy, all in the name of not causing scandal.

This is a long debunked conspiracy theory, that has never been proven to be true. Only in the delusional world of the corrupt, mainstream media, is it true that the higher ups in the Church hierarchy actually protected these pedophiles in some sort of massive cover up to prevent scandal.

[robrecht]

Well, as long as they don't engage in the acts, I don't see a problem with it. However, saying that fifty percent of the clergy is gay, is just absurd.

I have a feeling I know what you're talking about, but still, source?

This is a long debunked conspiracy theory, that has never been proven to be true. Only in the delusional world of the corrupt, mainstream media, is it true that the higher ups in the Church hierarchy actually protected these pedophiles in some sort of massive cover up to prevent scandal.

It is not absurd if it gets people to think and then talk openly and honestly about an issue that has been kept in the closet. Some day, perhaps there won't be any need for estimates.

My source is my own experience of many years in religious life. But you do not have to take my word for it; speak to anyone involved in church government at the time. It was common practice to protect abusers from civil authorities, to move abusers around in the belief that they had repented. Some were enlightened enough to try and prevent or limit the ministry to children of past offenders, but they were not turned over to the police.

[TimelessTheist]

My source is my own experience of many years in religious life. But you do not have to take my word for it; speak to anyone involved in church government at the time. It was common practice to protect abusers from civil authorities, to move abusers around in the belief that they had repented. Some were enlightened enough to try and prevent or limit the ministry to children of past offenders, but they were not turned over to the police.

Sorry, but "I know they did!" isn't good enough. You're going to have to provide evidence to back up that accusation. The closest thing you could ever come to that accusation is what the Church did in the fifties....and even then, they were just following suit with the secular authorities at the time, and sending men with pedophilia urges to get psychological counseling rather than sending them to prison.

It is not absurd if it gets people to think and then talk openly and honestly about an issue that has been kept in the closet. Some day, perhaps there won't be any need for estimates.

Why does it matter, again?

[robrecht]

Sorry, but "I know they did!" isn't good enough. You're going to have to provide evidence to back up that accusation.

Were we in a court of law, my testimony would be accepted as evidence, and I would provide my testimony truthfully, exactly as I've posted here, except there I would be gladly subject to the legal penalties for perjury. I would not have documentary evidence of my own to provide but it is subject to subpoena. I suspect that some subpoenaed documents have been made public, but I've never searched for this kind of evidence as I have no need of it to back up my own experience. Apart from my own experience I have also known personally one of the foremost experts in this field as well as several major superiors and bishops who would tell you exactly the same thing. You don't have to take my word for it.