Indulgences

[Catholicity]

Far be it from me to defend the crusades!!! But perhaps it is worth knowing that no indulgence was granted for simply becoming a crusader. This was only granted for "whoever, out of pure devotion and not for the purpose of gaining honor or money, shall go to Jerusalem to liberate the Church of God, let that journey be counted in lieu of all penance". But, the origin was earlier, when people made pilgrimages as mendicants to the holy land as an expression of their repentance for very serious crimes, eg, murder. Before long, knights went along to defend those who were being killed on the road, and eventally it seemed more efficient to just liberate the holy land. To this day, Christian nations are still involved in the military defense of Israel from Arabs and Muslims, all in the name of misguided Christian militarism, in my humble opinion.

I hope you are not so naive as to believe that those who went, all went under that condition. I'm quite sure that they often went for the pay, and hey why not try to get time off in purgatory while at it for all those times I drank too much ale and "accidentally" was caught looking at another woman....or something. (not necessarily, but you get the idea)

[robrecht]

I hope you are not so naive as to believe that those who went, all went under that condition. I'm quite sure that they often went for the pay, and hey why not try to get time off in purgatory while at it for all those times I drank too much ale and "accidentally" was caught looking at another woman....or something. (not necessarily, but you get the idea)

Do you think I'm that naive?

[Cow Poke]

Do you think I'm that naive?

Keep lookin for Lutherans.

[robrecht]

Keep lookin for Lutherans.

I'd settle for Moravians at this point!

[TimelessTheist]

Turn down the hyperbole, big boy. Bombast doesn't faze me. Pope Urban may have called the First Crusade, but I'm fairly certain he didn't call all of them. Regardless, was anyone actually excommunicated for their actions during the Crusades? The Crusaders were in general no choirboys.

Well, you should probably stop your accusations of them being allowed to "do whatever they want" then. I've never heard of such an accusation, and I'd like some substantiation for it.

As for the Crusaders being "no choirboys", well, I never exactly said I agreed with the actions of 'every' Crusader, as there are unsavory members in every army. I already have in mind some of them the things you're going to bring up, but please, could you give me some examples?

Are you the thread starter now? One almost gets the notion you're reluctant to discuss the topic.

I just don't want to derail the thread. There's already another thread on Purgatory, that was just created. I'll probably post anything I have there.

[TimelessTheist]

the primary criticism is that the crusades allowed for greed and violence to go unchecked by all involved.

Please cite some examples. Or rather, you'd have to cite around a hundred examples to prove that greed and violence when unchecked by "all involved".

If your given an order "kill and take" well what do you think is going to happen?"

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. What exactly is the context of that order? If it was in the context of an enemy city, such as Jerusalem, then "kill and take" would be a pretty standard act of warfare.

abuse of the indulgence system here to "go to war"

What "abuse"? They're fighting and dying to defend Christendom from Islamic Jihadists that sought to conquer them all. How is that not reason enough to receive an indulgence?

which sparked the massive reformation.

You mean the "massive reformation" that nobody, save for the kings and princes, actually wanted? Which caused the kings and princes to force the reformation on their people, through ways of deceit, military oppression, and, in the case of Denmark and Norway, civil war?

[TimelessTheist]

Dangit. I'm pretty sure this is going to lead to derailing the thread.

[Catholicity]

Do you think I'm that naive?

Sure.....


























I tried to type that with a straight face

[Paprika]

You have to understand, that if all of this is true, then the Catholic Church is the Church Christ established.
...
Outside of the notion of tradition, and the authority of the magisterium, I wouldn't be interested in the notion of indulgences either. I can just explain it, as best I can and perhaps deal with objections to it. Your real beef is with the authority of the Church.

I sense a circle forming.

[Paprika]

The popes (and others) believed it was better for you to accomplish your repentance now, here on earth, when you can benefit your fellow man directly. As Hillel said, "if not now, when?" Who's to say that God disagrees?

If this isn't going to derail too much: did Hillel conceive of a purgatory? How does purgatory make sense, if any, within (second-Temple) Judaism?

[robrecht]

If this isn't going to derail too much: did Hillel conceive of a purgatory? How does purgatory make sense, if any, within (second-Temple) Judaism?

No, I was just quoting his signature line, "If not now, when?" It is better to repent now than later, especially if you're not sure there will be a later.

[Paprika]

No, I was just quoting his signature line, "If not now, when?" It is better to repent now than later, especially if you're not sure there will be a later.

All right, but could you answer my questions anyway?

[robrecht]

All right, but could you answer my questions anyway?

I don't think it does. Sorry, I thought that would go without saying since Hillel probably would not have believed in it.

[Paprika]

I don't think it does. Sorry, I thought that would go without saying since Hillel probably would not have believed in it.

Just to confirm: the idea of a interim period in purgatory makes no sense within Judaism?

[robrecht]

Just to confirm: the idea of a interim period in purgatory makes no sense within Judaism?

Quick Google search answers your question:

The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...2446-purgatory