OK, here I am at the local pub, ice-cold Yeungling and a bowl of mushroom barley soup. Where are all the Lutherans?
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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining 'Christian' for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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Indulgences
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostIf I smash your window, and afterward said I was sorry, and you knew I meant it, you wouldn't mind forgiving me I assume. However I'm sure you'd ask me to put up a window again, or at least help you doing it.
Now there's nothing we can do at all, to merit in a strict way a repair for our crimes. However it is a teaching of the Catholic Church that we can have condign merit. In some sense we have to do this for our crimes, since even if the relationship to God is restored, there's still temporal punishment for the crime. I don't see the problem with this, even in terms of God's grace.
And yes isn't it a good thing, that the world being like that, that God would allow the Church to deal out these indulgences based upon the merit of the Church? So that by performing some actions in this world, God joins it with Christ's merit, and allows the person to be partially or fully remitted depending on how earnestly they've worked for it?
When Jesus paid for our sins, he paid ALL of the payment necessary for our sins. We are washed clean and we have his righteousness credited to us. We don't have to still pay for the sin to God. We might still have consequences in THIS life (like going to prison) but not in the next. And indulgences do nothing to alleviate any punishment we get in this life for our sins.
There is nothing in the bible about handing out indulgences.
If we indeed owe a debt to God for the sins we commit, then I assume that payment by us is necessary and required by God. So if the church can just step in and say "OK Leonard, you don't have to pay for YOUR sin of lying because we are giving you an indulgence, but Sparko you still have to pay for your sin of lying" -- then basically the church is saying that it knows better than God who needs to pay for their sins. If God didn't want someone to pay in purgatory or whereever, then he wouldn't have imposed that debt on them in the first place.
It just makes no sense, other than as some scheme dreamt up by the catholics to control their members
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post... So if the church can just step in and say "OK Leonard, you don't have to pay for YOUR sin of lying because we are giving you an indulgence, but Sparko you still have to pay for your sin of lying" -- then basically the church is saying that it knows better than God who needs to pay for their sins. If God didn't want someone to pay in purgatory or whereever, then he wouldn't have imposed that debt on them in the first place.
It just makes no sense, other than as some scheme dreamt up by the catholics to control their members
And it's not like they didn't already have plenty of other, more effective means of controlling their people and extorting money from them.Last edited by robrecht; 05-29-2014, 05:58 PM.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt's more like "I forgive you for breaking my window, if you feel really bad, and replace it. and to prove that you are really sorry, I want you to buy me a new car or I will call the police and turn you in"
I think that asking a person to spend half an hour reading the Bible, after having taken communion, and in general rejecting sin in his life, is not asking a person to do far more in reparation than what was hurt. That implies a very low view of how heinous sins really are.
When Jesus paid for our sins, he paid ALL of the payment necessary for our sins.
Sure if you've got venial sins on your soul when you die, they can only be forgiven in purgatory. However indulgences make no sense except for a person who has been forgiven of mortal sins, and all that requires is either perfection contrition or the sacrament of penance. Any person who's truly contrite gets forgiven. All it takes for even venial sins to be forgiven, is to take communion. However I don't see anywhere in the Bible, that we go straight to Heaven. I do see however in the tradition of the church, that there's purgatory, and that penance can reduce or eliminate the need to spend time there.
And its only through Christ's merit, that anyone else can get merit "Without me you can do nothing." That's why, when a person commits a mortal sin, they lose all the merit they have, and until they're forgiven, they can gain no more merit. Natural merit, as in virtues and wordly goodness? Yes. Supernatural merit with God? No.
We are washed clean and we have his righteousness credited to us. We don't have to still pay for the sin to God. We might still have consequences in THIS life (like going to prison) but not in the next.
And indulgences do nothing to alleviate any punishment we get in this life for our sins.
There is nothing in the bible about handing out indulgences.
I won't argue against sola scriptura though as I'm not that sharp in it yet.
If we indeed owe a debt to God for the sins we commit, then I assume that payment by us is necessary and required by God. So if the church can just step in and say "OK Leonard, you don't have to pay for YOUR sin of lying because we are giving you an indulgence, but Sparko you still have to pay for your sin of lying" -- then basically the church is saying that it knows better than God who needs to pay for their sins.
We'll either have to finish our punishment for the sins we've committed in this world, or the next. It says so in the Bible. We won't be let out until the last coin has been paid. We can pay for some of that in this world through penance, works of mercy, etc... and by joining in the indulgences granted through the ministry of the Church. Failing to do that, we have to go to purgatory.
If God didn't want someone to pay in purgatory or where ever, then he wouldn't have imposed that debt on them in the first place.
It just makes no sense, other than as some scheme dreamt up by the catholics to control their members
Outside of the notion of tradition, and the authority of the magisterium, I wouldn't be interested in the notion of indulgences either. I can just explain it, as best I can and perhaps deal with objections to it. Your real beef is with the authority of the Church.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostOK, here I am at the local pub, ice-cold Yeungling and a bowl of mushroom barley soup. Where are all the Lutherans?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostWell, if you want scriptural support of purgatory, I can give you that, though I don't want to derail the thread.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostAny system is open to abuse, and there are many real world examples of con-men convincing people of things that clearly aren't true.
What "time" are you talking about, exactly? I know they held a council in order to restrict the abuse of indulgences, after word got around that Pardoners were selling them past the legal limit, and promising people all kinds of things about them that weren't true.
Irrelevant to the case at hand.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostBy the way, Purgatory was invented as a place of repentance for those of us who are slow learners. We may need a little more time.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThat sounds vaguely Origenist (except he believed that everyone would learn eventually).אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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An indulgence was something I never actually understood as a Catholic, and I think what understanding I had was wrong. Honestly, the history of them was always at best shady. From what I can read, the doctrine for it applying to the soul is not applied until the latter middle ages and certainly not clarified until 1415. Physical indulgences or time off or away from penance are applied much earlier (which makes sense time off in exchange for community service, heck we still do that in capital offenses and misdemeanors.) What it demonstrates at best is a very major misunderstanding of the Grace we receive from Christ. I can see a Biblical case for Purgatory, Confession and Penance, but I cannot make a case for indulgences. This is where the RCC has gone to far in attempting to cover its own shortcomings.A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
George Bernard Shaw
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWeak. Anything to do with paying money for a desired result is wide open to abuse.
The Crusades were an especially egregious period (tell people who like to fight that if they go fight somewhere else they can do whatever they want without consequences? Oy.), but I'm referring to the first quarter or so of the 16th century. When was this council?
ot really. The whole idea of indulgences is dependent on the idea of purgatory.Last edited by TimelessTheist; 05-29-2014, 08:09 PM.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostThis is true.
This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever read. No, Pope Urban the Second never said the Crusaders could "do whatever they want", that's completely idiotic.
We're discussing indulgences themselves, not purgatory.A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
George Bernard Shaw
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostThis has to be the dumbest thing I've ever read. No, Pope Urban the Second never said the Crusaders could "do whatever they want", that's completely idiotic. In fact, he said the opposite, that anyone, quote, "acting out of malice or arrogance" would be excommunicated.
We're discussing indulgences themselves, not purgatory.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Catholicity View PostI hope you can take this correction here...but sure there was military code, however you ought to take note that a person could receive an indulgence simply by becoming a crusader and the primary criticism is that the crusades allowed for greed and violence to go unchecked by all involved. If your given an order "kill and take" well what do you think is going to happen?" Hence OBP's assesment is not incorrect. In addition, the use and abuse of the indulgence system here to "go to war" most likely was the trigger of the monetary abuse later which sparked the massive reformation.Last edited by robrecht; 05-29-2014, 08:45 PM.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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