Originally posted by robrecht
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. . . the Real Presence in the Eucharist or another Jesus another gospel.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI have used that same expression -- and the objection was that it was a "mystical" situation, and "magic" was making light of it.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI agree that any language of 'magic' is making light of the Eucharist and is disrespectful of Christ's sacrifice and last supper. I don't think 'mystical' is making light of anything. Speaking of magic language, I'm sure you've probably heard that the language of 'hocus pocus' and the campfire song and dance of the Hokey Pokey were derived from the Latin words of consecration Hoc es enim corpus meum quod pro vobis tradetur .... Any truth to that?
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostOne need only look at the Jewish ritual that the Eucharist was modeled after to excuse those arguments. Every item in the Shabbat meal had a significance and reference to Messiah. None were actually Him, but all were symbols to point to Him, from the plates to the salt to the bread to the prayers offered. Offending any of these items was akin to offending Messiah Himself.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI was speaking with Joseph Blenkinsopp once regarding the symbolism of the Passover Seder. I mentioned that the egg symbolized the yolk of slavery. He said he would pass over that comment.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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I FINALLY figured out what 37818 means... type it in a calculator and flip it upside down... Sometimes I worry about myself...That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAll seriousness aside, I cannot stress how much I believe that the heart and attitude of the believer is a huge part of... I mean, I really don't think the Lord would chide somebody who has the "wrong idea" about the "real presence" as long as they were sincerely coming to the "fellowship of suffering" represented by the "remembrance of Him".אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by bill the cat View PostI finally figured out what 37818 means... Type it in a calculator and flip it upside down... Sometimes i worry about myself...אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI agree. That's why I don't think we should fight about the Eucharist. However we try to define or understand it, we should strive to be united in our celebration of faith.
Well.... we DO!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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That wafer ain't Jesus.
1. Eating is used metaphorically. Jeremiah "ate" God's word (Jeremiah 15:16). In John it refers to the "believing" in the living Word of God (John 6:47). When the Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ we "drink" of Him (1 Corinthians 12:13).
2. "It is the LORD'S Passover" (Exodus 12:11) - It represents the LORD'S Passover.
3. What's insane is that some people actually worship it.
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostThat wafer ain't Jesus.
1. Eating is used metaphorically. Jeremiah "ate" God's word (Jeremiah 15:16). In John it refers to the "believing" in the living Word of God (John 6:47). When the Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ we "drink" of Him (1 Corinthians 12:13).
2. "It is the LORD'S Passover" (Exodus 12:11) - It represents the LORD'S Passover.
3. What's insane is that some people actually worship it.
2) Yes, however, being a reminder of the Lord's Passover does not exclude transubstantiation in any way, shape, or form.
3) Yes. They are called heretical cults.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostSo you do or you do not believe that I have created a false dichotomy??? That was my question to you.
What do you mean by "the believes"? 'The be lievers' perhaps?
In addition, I'm not sure you are really arguing with me or with some idea in your mind about what you imagine I believe. I do not recall ever saying that the Real Presences (plural) is (or are) in the Eucharst. I do believe that Christ is truly and really present when we celebrate the Eucharist, using the bread and wine as symbols, as Jesus himself did and commanded us to do. I do not believe that a chemical analysis of the consecrated bread and wine would be any different before or after consecration, but I also do not think it would be proper to perform a chemical analysis on consecrated bread and wine. I believe symbols are real, but I do not believe sacraments are magic of some kind.
In the RCC, the belief in the Real Presence when the RCC priest says the right words and pays the correct attention, consecrates the bread and the "wine" it is then the body and blood of God the Son. To the RCC it is a big deal. To me, I'm being nice here in saying, it is utter nonsense. None of it is Biblical. Check out "Eucharist abuses." And it is all based on the error of believing "Real Presence in the Eucharist."
To the RCC it is a quite serious matter: http://www.catholic.com/documents/liturgical-abuses
For more examples: https://www.google.com/#q=eucharist+abuses&safe=active. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post1) . . . that Jesus reiterates that the Eucharist is "his flesh indeed", . . .
The text no where says, . . . τουτο το σωμα μου . . . . But . . . τουτο εστιν το σωμα μου . . . represents. Translated "is." Metaphor.
Even as the text does not say, . . . ο θεος φως . . . . But . . . ο θεος φως εστιν . . . represents. Translated "is." Metaphor.
The text does say, . . . πνευμα ο θεος . . . and not . . . πνευμα ο θεος εστιν. . . . "is" is supplied by the translator. Not metaphor.
[references:
Matthew 26:26; Mark 14:22; Luke 22:19; 1 John 1:5; John 4:24 ]. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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