. . . the Real Presence in the Eucharist or another Jesus another gospel.

[robrecht]

The term "dichotomy" means to cut into two parts originally. I was not using the correct meaning base on the definition I cited. My accusation of you using a "false dichotomy" was not the logical "false dichotomy" of opposite ideas. You argued that a "Real Presence" was in both Eucharist and in the Body of Christ. I took that as a "dichotomy" being two parts, holding the first "in [the] Eucharist" as false, therefore a "false dichotomy." Well as far "false dichotomy" fallacy goes, I was using the term incorrectly.

Yup, it was a typo. Didn't type the r.
Again, another typo. The s was not intended.

In the RCC, the belief in the Real Presence when the RCC priest says the right words and pays the correct attention, consecrates the bread and the "wine" it is then the body and blood of God the Son. To the RCC it is a big deal. To me, I'm being nice here in saying, it is utter nonsense. None of it is Biblical. Check out "Eucharist abuses." And it is all based on the error of believing "Real Presence in the Eucharist."

To the RCC it is a quite serious matter: http://www.catholic.com/documents/liturgical-abuses
For more examples: https://www.google.com/#q=eucharist+abuses&safe=active

I'm not sure that you understand the Catholic doctrine correctly. Rather than just posting links, perhaps you could try and explain what you are referring to. There is quite a bit of diversity in how Catholic theologians understand the Eucharist. I am at the more liberal end of the spectrum in some respects but with respect to praxis, I am pretty conservative.

[foudroyant]

1) That's seriously the worst comparison I've ever heard. Plus, not to mention that Jesus reiterates that the Eucharist is "his flesh indeed", after his disciples were confused and questioned him about it. Tell me, why wouldn't he elaborate the metaphor to his disciples if they didn't understand it, but instead simply reiterate the supposed metaphor? He did so with the metaphor of the Pharisees and the leavened bread.

2) Yes, however, being a reminder of the Lord's Passover does not exclude transubstantiation in any way, shape, or form.

3) Yes. They are called heretical cults.

1. So if Jeremiah and Paul said "indeed" that would mean they weren't speaking metaphorically as well? Blood must be from a sacrifice but Christ hadn't yet died when He gave this message (John 6:48-58).
2. Why not?
3. Agree.

[37818]

This doesn't seem like an answer to the question I asked you. If I may, let me remind you of the question: do you think St Paul said that the cup of blessing that we bless is a sharing in the fake blood of Christ? Or that the bread that we break is a sharing in the fake body of Christ? Is St Paul speaking of a real sharing or a fake sharing?

It says it is fellowship of the blood of Christ and fellowship of the body of Christ, being that "For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." The reason and the how is being part of the body of Christ. (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 John 5:1, 12.)

To me the claims of the "Real Presence in the Eucharist" is fake body and fake blood of Christ.

[TimelessTheist]

1. So if Jeremiah and Paul said "indeed" that would mean they weren't speaking metaphorically as well? Blood must be from a sacrifice but Christ hadn't yet died when He gave this message (John 6:48-58).
2. Why not?
3. Agree.

1) You didn't read it all, did you?
2) Why would it?

[robrecht]

It says it is fellowship of the blood of Christ and fellowship of the body of Christ, being that "For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." The reason and the how is being part of the body of Christ. (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 John 5:1, 12.)

To me the claims of the "Real Presence in the Eucharist" is fake body and fake blood of Christ.

I understand your opinion, but I have been trying to get a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer to my question to you about what Paul says here. I don't want you to limit your answer to a 'yes' or 'no', but I would appreciate it if you could address this specific question directly:

Do you think St Paul said that the cup of blessing that we bless is a sharing in the fake blood of Christ?

Or is the Eucharist a sharing in the real body and blood of Christ?

Or, is it neither real nor fake? Something else perhaps. A sharing in the symbols of the body and blood, perhaps? Do we share 'only in symbols' of his body and blood, but this is not a real sharing or participation in his person and sacrifice? Mere words? Form and not substance?

[37818]

I understand your opinion, but I have been trying to get a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer to my question to you about what Paul says here. I don't want you to limit your answer to a 'yes' or 'no', but I would appreciate it if you could address this specific question directly:

Do you think St Paul said that the cup of blessing that we bless is a sharing in the fake blood of Christ?

Or is the Eucharist a sharing in the real body and blood of Christ?

Or, is it neither real nor fake? Something else perhaps. A sharing in the symbols of the body and blood, perhaps? Do we share 'only in symbols' of his body and blood, but this is not a real sharing or participation in his person and sacrifice? Mere words? Form and not substance?

It is a real sharing of the body and blood of Christ in the metaphor of the observance. As I point out via what is taught in v.17. Believers are partakers of the body and blood of Christ by faith prior to the observance. And the metaphor in which we share in the body and blood of Christ is the remembrance of it.

The bread and cup are metaphor [symbols]. The fellowship with the body and blood of Christ is real. How else can I state it as I believe to be true?

My rejection is of making metaphor into the body and blood of Christ.

[robrecht]

It is a real sharing of the body and blood of Christ in the metaphor of the observance. As I point out via what is taught in v.17. Believers are partakers of the body and blood of Christ by faith prior to the observance. And the metaphor in which we share in the body and blood of Christ is the remembrance of it.

The bread and cup are metaphor [symbols]. The fellowship with the body and blood of Christ is real. How else can I state it as I believe to be true?

My rejection is of making metaphor into the body and blood of Christ.

If you believe that the fellowship with the body and blood of Christ is real, then I think you believe in the real presence, mediated by faith in the symbol of the consecrated bread and wine. Yes?

[foudroyant]

1) You didn't read it all, did you?
2) Why would it?

1. Yes, I did.
2. Blood must be from a sacrifice but Christ hadn't yet died when He gave this message (John 6:48-58).
AND
That would mean it would be ok to worship it.

[37818]

If you believe that the fellowship with the body and blood of Christ is real, then I think you believe in the real presence, mediated by faith in the symbol of the consecrated bread and wine. Yes?

No.

The fellowship of the blood of Christ and the body of Christ is real and the presence is spiritual, not physical. The blood that by which the payment of death was made, was made on the cross (John 19:28; Hebrews 10:10) and finished there. The fellowship of the body and blood of Christ is purely a remembrance. All genuine believers make up that one body. And so the believers who fellowship through the Lord's table do so as a remembrance of that one event.

[robrecht]

No.

The fellowship of the blood of Christ and the body of Christ is real and the presence is spiritual, not physical. The blood that by which the payment of death was made, was made on the cross (John 19:28; Hebrews 10:10) and finished there. The fellowship of the body and blood of Christ is purely a remembrance. All genuine believers make up that one body. And so the believers who fellowship through the Lord's table do so as a remembrance of that one event.

Only the physical is real? The spiritual prsence of Christ is not real?

[37818]

Only the physical is real? The spiritual presence of Christ is not real?

No. Not what I said. The spiritual presence of Christ in the believers who collectively bless the cup is real. Even as Christ is in them (Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12; 1 Corinthians 10:17). The observance is a remembrance. The remembrance is of a finished work on the cross (John 19:28; Hebrews 10:10).

[robrecht]

No. Not what I said. The spiritual presence of Christ in the believers who collectively bless the cup is real. Even as Christ is in them (Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12; 1 Corinthians 10:17). The observance is a remembrance. The remembrance is of a finished work on the cross (John 19:28; Hebrews 10:10).

I know that is not what you said, which is why I was asking questions. "The fellowship of the blood of Christ and the body of Christ is real and the presence is spiritual, not physical." How is this not a belief in the real presence?

[37818]

I know that is not what you said, which is why I was asking questions. "The fellowship of the blood of Christ and the body of Christ is real and the presence is spiritual, not physical." How is this not a belief in the real presence?

It is not a belief in the real presence being in the Eucharist. But that it is in all genuine believers, regardless of partaking of the Eucharist or not. (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 John 5:12. )

[robrecht]

It is not a belief in the real presence being in the Eucharist. But that it is in all genuine believers, regardless of partaking of the Eucharist or not. (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1 John 5:12. )

Is the celebration of the Eucharist more or less equivalent to playing Bingo in the church basement?

[37818]

Is the celebration of the Eucharist more or less equivalent to playing Bingo in the church basement?

No. But rather like believer's immersion [baptism]. Believer's baptism is the believer's burial with Christ, identifying with Christ is His death. Unlike baptism, which is done once after one is saved, the remembrance of Christ's death is done more often, how often depending on the local membership. Neither are matters of salvation. Since salvation is by the grace of God through faith. (Ephesians 2:5; 2:8.)