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Communion, the Long-Distance Edition

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I am trying to get grape juice. But the grocery stores are low on everything. I know they are out of wine. I might have to use tortillas as the bread. I know OBP will probably think that is sacrilegious but it's all I have that is unleavened bread.
    I believe God honors the intent of the heart - He looks on the inside.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      We also used to use bread in some services.
      We had a guy in our church who used to bake matzo for us from a his Jewish grandmother's recipe.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Well, the East has used leavened bread since nearly the beginning, and that's what was normally used in most Protestant churches I attended.
        I thought it was tradition to use unleavened bread, thus the communion wafers?
        Last edited by Sparko; 03-25-2020, 02:02 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
          In an effort to limit my carbs, I eat my sandwich on a low carb tortilla every day for lunch. I like it fine TBH. It's esp. good for making a Tuna Wrap! They have a Spinach and a Tomato Basil that work well with tuna, canned chicken etc.
          Gonna try PapaJohn's Papadias today -- if their website comes back up. They're BUSY, and this is GOOD!

          papadias.jpegpapajohns.jpg
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Well, the East has used leavened bread since nearly the beginning, and that's what was normally used in most Protestant churches I attended. I would go with that over tortillas.

            I also note that, in the underground church in Japan, the people resorted to fish and rice for communion.
            I have only ever attended one church that used leavened bread for communion, and I thought it was really odd. Every other church I have ever had communion at has used unleavened wafers specially made for the purpose, or occasionally saltines broken into pieces. The bread was at a "non-denominational" church BTW.

            I thought it was supposed to be unleavened? What's the rationale for using leavened bread?
            Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              I thought it was tradition to use unleavened bread, thus the communion wafers?
              In the West, yes. It was a point of contention during the Great Schism and attempts to resolve it.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Gonna try PapaJohn's Papadias today -- if their website comes back up. They're BUSY, and this is GOOD!

                [ATTACH=CONFIG]43532[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]43533[/ATTACH]
                I got a pizza from Dominos this past weekend since they're offering the best deal now. Usually they tell you it'll be 15 to 20 minutes and they've always have it ready before 15 minutes. But this time I was told it'll be 40 to 45 minutes.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                  I have only ever attended one church that used leavened bread for communion, and I thought it was really odd. Every other church I have ever had communion at has used unleavened wafers specially made for the purpose, or occasionally saltines broken into pieces. The bread was at a "non-denominational" church BTW.

                  I thought it was supposed to be unleavened? What's the rationale for using leavened bread?
                  Poking around a bit, I found this:
                  Source: Eucharistic Bread: Leavened or Unleavened?


                  In the Bible, unleavened bread is called “unleavened bread,” whereas leavened bread is simply called “bread.” The Jews at that time would have understood this as would have the early Christians. It says that “He took bread,” meaning leavened bread; and the Christians, being first instructed by the Apostles and then reading in the Gospels some time later, implemented this.

                  At the Mystical Supper, it is obvious that our Lord was changing things, to tie the Passover meal with its fulfillment, the Eucharist. One of those changes, obviously, was using leavened bread instead of unleavened, or at least leavened in addition to unleavened. The world was empty and devoid of grace before Christ, as is symbolized by the flatness of the unleavened bread, but later filled with the glory of His Resurrection, as is symbolized by the leavened bread. Christ made the change, and the Church followed through on it.

                  The word for unleavened bread in Greek is AZYMOS it is used in the Greek New Testament nine times: Mt.26:17; Mk.14:1,12; Lk.22:1,7;Ac.12:3; 20:6; 1Cor.5:7,8.

                  The word for leavened bread is ARTOS it is used 97 times in the Greek New Testament.

                  The passages where they are relevant for the Mystical Supper are;

                  Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said,

                  “Take, eat; this is my body.”

                  – Mt. 26:26; Mk.14:22; Lk.22:19;24:30,35; 1 Cor.10:16,17 (twice);11:26,27,28.

                  In all these places, the writers never say Jesus took AZYMOS and blessed it, they write that Jesus took ARTOS, common ordinary leavened bread.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  It appears that even in the West, unleavened bread was not used prior to the 8th century, and did not become universal until the 11th century.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    As far as I can tell, you have a low view of communion; low church Protestants (of which you are one) tend to view it as either a symbol or an ordinance. You tack it on to your regular worship service on occasion. Compared with viewing it as the very body and blood of Christ, that IS a low view. Communion is the central part of high church worship - not something tacked on ever and anon. If I'm wrong about your view, I apologise.
                    Having been to a couple churches that very rarely celebrated communion or tacked it on to the end of the service off to the side when the service was over, I get your point. I won't call these low view. I would call them the disrespectful view.

                    I think it's worth reminding everyone that low and high are descriptors of church services and neither necessarily reflect on the quality of the worship of God. Either low or high can be very worshipful or totally off. This is an area that I view as both sides are Biblically correct and God leaves it to the individual on which is better for them to worship God with.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I believe God honors the intent of the heart - He looks on the inside.
                      Yes. I think going after a Christian for doing this would be like criticizing someone who was in prison for being a Christian for not attending church.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Poking around a bit, I found this:
                        Source: Eucharistic Bread: Leavened or Unleavened?


                        In the Bible, unleavened bread is called “unleavened bread,” whereas leavened bread is simply called “bread.” The Jews at that time would have understood this as would have the early Christians. It says that “He took bread,” meaning leavened bread; and the Christians, being first instructed by the Apostles and then reading in the Gospels some time later, implemented this.

                        At the Mystical Supper, it is obvious that our Lord was changing things, to tie the Passover meal with its fulfillment, the Eucharist. One of those changes, obviously, was using leavened bread instead of unleavened, or at least leavened in addition to unleavened. The world was empty and devoid of grace before Christ, as is symbolized by the flatness of the unleavened bread, but later filled with the glory of His Resurrection, as is symbolized by the leavened bread. Christ made the change, and the Church followed through on it.

                        The word for unleavened bread in Greek is AZYMOS it is used in the Greek New Testament nine times: Mt.26:17; Mk.14:1,12; Lk.22:1,7;Ac.12:3; 20:6; 1Cor.5:7,8.

                        The word for leavened bread is ARTOS it is used 97 times in the Greek New Testament.

                        The passages where they are relevant for the Mystical Supper are;

                        Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said,

                        “Take, eat; this is my body.”

                        – Mt. 26:26; Mk.14:22; Lk.22:19;24:30,35; 1 Cor.10:16,17 (twice);11:26,27,28.

                        In all these places, the writers never say Jesus took AZYMOS and blessed it, they write that Jesus took ARTOS, common ordinary leavened bread.

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        It appears that even in the West, unleavened bread was not used prior to the 8th century, and did not become universal until the 11th century.
                        It was the passover meal and Jews don't eat leavened bread during passover.

                        Why don’t Jews eat leavened bread during Passover?

                        Not featured during the meal are leavened foods made of grain known as “chametz.” Chametz is prohibited during Passover, so you won’t find any pasta, cookies, bread or cereal at the seder. (More traditional Jews will completely clean out any foods containing chametz from their home.)

                        This has to do with the story of Passover: After the killing of the first born, the Pharaoh agreed to let the Israelites go. But in their haste to leave Egypt, the Israelites could not let their bread rise and so they brought unleavened bread. This specific dietary requirement is spelled out in Exodus 12:14, “You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwelling places you shall eat unleavened bread.”

                        To commemorate this, Jews do not eat leavened bread for eight days.
                        https://time.com/5188494/passover-history-traditions/

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          It was the passover meal and Jews don't eat leavened bread during passover.

                          Why don’t Jews eat leavened bread during Passover?

                          Not featured during the meal are leavened foods made of grain known as “chametz.” Chametz is prohibited during Passover, so you won’t find any pasta, cookies, bread or cereal at the seder. (More traditional Jews will completely clean out any foods containing chametz from their home.)

                          This has to do with the story of Passover: After the killing of the first born, the Pharaoh agreed to let the Israelites go. But in their haste to leave Egypt, the Israelites could not let their bread rise and so they brought unleavened bread. This specific dietary requirement is spelled out in Exodus 12:14, “You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwelling places you shall eat unleavened bread.”

                          To commemorate this, Jews do not eat leavened bread for eight days.
                          https://time.com/5188494/passover-history-traditions/
                          I know that, the fathers of the Church knew that, and the portion of the article I quoted addresses that. Please do me the courtesy of reading what I posted and addressing that in your response, okay? Your post doesn't even manage to rise to the level of a handwave.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            I know that, the fathers of the Church knew that, and the portion of the article I quoted addresses that. Please do me the courtesy of reading what I posted and addressing that in your response, okay? Your post doesn't even manage to rise to the level of a handwave.
                            I did read it. the bit

                            At the Mystical Supper, it is obvious that our Lord was changing things, to tie the Passover meal with its fulfillment, the Eucharist. One of those changes, obviously, was using leavened bread instead of unleavened, or at least leavened in addition to unleavened. The world was empty and devoid of grace before Christ, as is symbolized by the flatness of the unleavened bread, but later filled with the glory of His Resurrection, as is symbolized by the leavened bread. Christ made the change, and the Church followed through on it.

                            seems like a rationalization. Especially the bit about trying to explain Christ's motivation.

                            https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/740.html
                            Artos:

                            food composed of flour mixed with water and baked
                            the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round cake, as thick as one's thumb, and as large as a plate or platter hence it was not to be cut but broken
                            loaves were consecrated to the Lord
                            of the bread used at the love-feasts and at the Lord's Table

                            And Azymos

                            unfermented, free from leaven or yeast

                            of the unleavened loaves used in the paschal feast of the Jews
                            metaph. free from faults or the "leaven of iniquity"
                            --------

                            Azymos just means "unleavened" not "unleavened bread"

                            the word bread is inserted for clarity, it isn't in the greek

                            https://www.studylight.org/interline....html?lang=grk

                            ScreenHunter_.jpg

                            try not to be so snide next time. Thanks

                            food of any kind
                            Last edited by Sparko; 03-26-2020, 03:32 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                              Hmm. We have always have communion on the first Sunday of each month. We have been, for maybe three or four years now, using the prefilled communion cups with included dry bread (not crackers) or wafers. I was wondering how well that would work with us being locked down. I'll float this idea this by the others.
                              We're set to have our regular communion...the cups are prepackaged for people to take to their homes and we will celebrate by FB on Sunday morning.
                              Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                                We're set to have our regular communion...the cups are prepackaged for people to take to their homes and we will celebrate by FB on Sunday morning.
                                We're providing the bread and suggesting they buy their own grape juice or wine - my ministry coordinator baked a whole bunch of matzo.
                                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                                Comment

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