Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[robrecht]

I'm not omniscient but to know the totality of all the hearts of all people means the same thing as being omniscient. Thus no else knows but God.

Around and around we go.

But you said that Is God's Omniscience is not limited to knowing only the prayerful intentions of those who pray. Do you now want to limit God's Omniscience?

[foudroyant]

It's not limited but since He knows all the hearts it already proves His omniscience.
Knowing the totality of all the hearts proves He knows the totality of everything else.

Just hit page 10 here. Enough has been said over and over again.

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3:7, KJV)

I got other places to be.


Goodbye

[robrecht]

It's not limited but since He knows all the hearts it already proves His omniscience.
Knowing the totality of all the hearts proves He knows the totality of everything else.

Just hit page 10 here. Enough has been said over and over again.

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3:7, KJV)

I got other places to be.


Goodbye

OK, goodbye, then, but please return when you achieve Omniscience. I will have many more questions for you!

[Leonhard]

Prayer intentions would necessitate fully knowing the heart.

Why? I don't see that at all.

[One Bad Pig]

OK. I tried doing a search on the computer and couldn't find anything.

I know the Mormons believe it refers to omniscience.

Surely you're not using the Mormons as an authority.

[robrecht]

Any port in a storm.

[RBerman]

Is it possible that God could tell a person about the totality of every heart at any given moment without making that person completely omniscient? Is is possible to know the totality of every heart without at the same time knowing how many stars are in the sky?

It is not usually helpful to frame questions in terms of what God can or cannot do. Rather, the question is: On what grounds would we think that God does such a thing? No one in the Bible treats deceased saints as if it were so. No parts of the Bible instruct us to do such things. Hebrews 11, the passage which most strongly encourages us to think about our spiritual forebears, simply says that their lives serve as witnesses to us, without a hint that they currently help us through prayers we offer to them in general, or in some alleged area of expertise-- the saint of music, the saint of travel, etc.

[Catholicity]

Surely you're not using the Mormons as an authority.

I think that's called "arguing out of desperation"

[foudroyant]

I think that's called "arguing out of desperation"

I am not using them as an authority to support my claim. Duh people! Robtrainwreck asked me about if I knew of any Catholic documentation about knowing hearts in Post 75. I wrote in Post 76 that I couldn't find any. The Mormon reference was simply a side comment that others also believe it refers to omniscience.

I cited plenty of excellent Greek scholars in the OP who affirm what I believe. Do you believe them? No. Has anyone cited any scholars who disagree with them? No.
So as the Mary worshiping heretics you are I appealed to other heretics (the Mormons) that know better than you. Get a clue.

I'm willing to debate this in the one on one section of TWEB...but as usual no one will accept for your blasphemous heresy will be stomped on.

[Leonhard]

2 Sam. 1:1-3:

"Now it came to pass, after Saul was dead, that David returned from the slaughter of the Amalecites, and abode two days in Siceleg. And on the third day, there appeared a man who came out of Saul's camp, with his garments rent, and dust strewed on his head: and when he came to David, he fell upon his face, and adored. And David said to him: From whence comest thou? And he said to him: I am fled out of the camp of Israel."

[foudroyant]

2 Sam. 1:1-3:

"Now it came to pass, after Saul was dead, that David returned from the slaughter of the Amalecites, and abode two days in Siceleg. And on the third day, there appeared a man who came out of Saul's camp, with his garments rent, and dust strewed on his head: and when he came to David, he fell upon his face, and adored. And David said to him: From whence comest thou? And he said to him: I am fled out of the camp of Israel."

The Hebrew word for prostrated is shachah and it could mean the worship of God or obeisance rendered unto people.

It happened as David was coming to the summit, where God was worshiped, that behold, Hushai the Archite met him with his coat torn and dust on his head. (2 Samuel 15:32, NASB)

There is no Hebrew word in the Bible used for the exclusive worship of God.

Your point is invalid.

[foudroyant]

delete

[RBerman]

I cited plenty of excellent Greek scholars in the OP who affirm what I believe.

But you didn't. You quoted a lexicon to show that some specific Hebrew words translated as "pray" are only used in the Bible with respect to God. Then I showed numerous examples of a grammatical (not lexical, and thus not found in a lexicon) feature in Hebrew which was repeatedly translated as "pray" in the Bible even when the object was not God.

[foudroyant]

From Post #58:
Notice further that when it is used of people addressing other people it is not multiple people with various needs all addressing the person at the same time and having that person fully understand every thing that was being said.
-----------------------------
If 500,000 people all said to one person at the same time "I pray thee..." and then they presented various requests (many of them silent) for various amounts of time that person would not be able to fully understand all the requests rendered unto him/her.
When multiple people addressed the commander in Acts 21:34 he was unable to fully understand what all the people were saying.

Both cases would present no difficulty to the heart-knowing (omniscient) God.



So I will repeat my point once again. The word "pray" or "prayed" is not used in the exact same way.

[Catholicity]

But you didn't. You quoted a lexicon to show that some specific Hebrew words translated as "pray" are only used in the Bible with respect to God. Then I showed numerous examples of a grammatical (not lexical, and thus not found in a lexicon) feature in Hebrew which was repeatedly translated as "pray" in the Bible even when the object was not God.

I think Rberman pointed out a fundamental flaw in your argument. I know he's not Catholic and we've certainly had some disagreements, over Catholicism. But you have taken this to a new level of lunacy foud. At best you have misinterpretation of scripture, and you don't have a single decent source that actually backs the claim up. You're claim is that if Catholics pray to an angel or saint, we are worshipping them. That's not what I was taught, nor what I learned. We do not attribute Omniscience, nor any attribute of God to any saint. When we as a saint or an angel to pray for us it is no different than if we ask a fellow Christian who is here to pray for us. The Saints are just as much alive as we are. But they are present with the Lord. Secondly if any miracle is attributed to a Saint, they cannot do it by their own power, but it is God who does it by using them as a vessel to reveal himself. You may consider it blasphemy, But you should at least try to understand it, before you criticize it.