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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • #196
    Phrasal verb
    trot something out
    informal Provide an explanation or piece of information that has already been used many times before: everyone trots out the old excuse
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment

    • #197
      Proseuchomai is directed only to God

      SEPPA

      Isaiah 45:20 συνάχθητε καὶ ἥκετε βουλεύσασθε ἅμα οἱ σῳζόμενοι ἀπὸ τῶν ἐθνῶν οὐκ ἔγνωσαν οἱ αἴροντες τὸ ξύλον γλύμμα αὐτῶν καὶ προσευχόμενοι ὡς πρὸς θεούς οἳ οὐ σῴζουσιν
      Last edited by tabibito; 07-29-2014, 03:04 AM.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment

      • #198
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Phrasal verb
        trot something out
        informal Provide an explanation or piece of information that has already been used many times before: everyone trots out the old excuse

        Citation please. I don't want just what you think it means. Back up your assertion.

        Comment

        • #199
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Proseuchomai is directed only to God

          SEPPA

          Isaiah 45:20 συνάχθητε καὶ ἥκετε βουλεύσασθε ἅμα οἱ σῳζόμενοι ἀπὸ τῶν ἐθνῶν οὐκ ἔγνωσαν οἱ αἴροντες τὸ ξύλον γλύμμα αὐτῶν καὶ προσευχόμενοι ὡς πρὸς θεούς οἳ οὐ σῴζουσιν
          As used in the New Testament? Isaiah is not in the New Testament.

          Try again.

          Comment

          • #200
            http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...n/english/trot
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment

            • #201
              Vine didn't say "in the New Testament" according to your quotation. Are you saying that you misquoted him?

              No - I see that your citation was accurate.

              <A-2,Verb,4336,proseuchomai>
              "to pray," is always used of "prayer" to God, and is the most frequent word in this respect, especially in the Synoptists and Acts, once in Rom. 8:26; Eph. 6:18; Phil. 1:9; 1 Tim. 2:8; Heb. 13:18; Jude 1:20. For the injunction in 1 Thess. 5:17, see CEASE, C.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment

              • #202
                You don't accept my sources so I don't accept what you supplied.

                So the word that you used remains undefined.

                See what happens when we choose to redefine words.....hello Humpty Dumty!

                When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean (Humpty Dumpty in Through the Looking Glass).

                Comment

                • #203
                  The difference is - you haven't been able to provide evidence that calls what I have said into question.

                  And no - your "expository" dictionaries don't comprise evidence, because the actual usage of the word has been demonstrated. The theory hasn't been supported by evidence, it has been given seppa.

                  That is of course, if the intended meaning by the authors was not

                  "The only time that the word is used in the New Testament (as opposed to other places) is when prayer is addressed to God."
                  If the lexicons mean that, then your capacity to understand what you are reading is (to be polite) sub par.
                  Last edited by tabibito; 07-29-2014, 03:21 AM.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment

                  • #204
                    Sure I have. Every time proseuchomai is used in the NT it refers to praying to God.

                    Comment

                    • #205
                      That is a very different interpretation to the one you were espousing before - that prayer (προσευχομαι) was only to be addressed to God.
                      Your CURRENT definition can't be used to support the argument that προσευχομαι to anyone except God is wrong.

                      And your definition is even then still wrong - one occurrence does in fact refer to prayer to gods other than the Christian God.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment

                      • #206
                        How is it different?
                        Proseuchomai is due only unto God. This is what the NT teaches.

                        Please supply the passage where proseuchomai in the NT is not used in reference to God.

                        Comment

                        • #207
                          At that, you are going further than even the dictionaries are going. Cite chapter and verse to demonstrate that your assertion is valid.
                          The key word is "pray" - where does the New Testament state that one person is not permitted to pray to another, or to any except God?
                          I'm not saying that such a verse can't be found - I've never looked for it.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment

                          • #208
                            I cited plenty of dictionaries that assert what I have been saying.
                            You don't believe them so it is back again for me not to believe your source for the word that you used.

                            Comment

                            • #209
                              Please supply the passage where proseuchomai in the NT is not used in reference to God.
                              That has already been done by your own references. Matt 6:7
                              incidentally -
                              Source: Thayer's dictionary

                              to offer prayers, to pray (everywhere of prayers to the gods or to God)

                              © Copyright Original Source


                              Whether he means "everywhere" or "everywhere in the Bible" I don't know.

                              A further complication for your argument is that there are a number of words that translate as pray. Could you demonstrate that the Roman procedure with regard to the saints is definitely προσευχομαι?
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment

                              • #210
                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                Proseuchomai is just like latreuo in that it can be rendered unto others besides God but it ought not to be done.
                                Already addressed that here.

                                Comment

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