Originally posted by One Bad Pig
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining 'Christian' for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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Posing Problems in the Westminster Confession of Faith
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostA string of unsupported assertions is not backup.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSome folks think merely making an assertion is providing evidence and when they repeat it they are substantiating it.http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html
Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!
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Originally posted by hansgeorg View PostNot very, no. And you are a sloppy historian, since there is such a thing as theocatagnostic heresy.
One Church Father, but it was five to ten years ago, no, more, I am no longer sure it was St Basil, made a list of 100 or so heresies, one of them being the theocatagnostic one.
Criticising God or His saints (that includes St Thomas Aquinas) for their words or deeds.According to Christian Faith, God has complete power to keep His promises and complete foreknowledge of what to us is the future. That means, God's promises are prophetic. No matter how you turn it, it will involve God's foreknowledge of His keeping His promises. AND according to the Christian Faith the man who uttered the words was, precisely, God. Therefore, His promise is also prophecy.
That verse does not say what you think it says.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostI'm not going to simply take your assertion as fact, especially since Google produces exactly 1 result for "theocatagnostic". Do you have any references?
That is a list of heretical attitudes rather than of specific sects. Theocatagnostic should be one on the list, but I do not find it, here I found another one on wikiquote:
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_of_Damascus
The Christianocategori, or Accusers of Christians, are such and are so called, because those Christians who worship one living and true God praised in Trinity they accused of worshiping as gods, after the manner of the Greeks, the venerable images of our Lord Jesus Christ, of our immaculate lady, the holy Mother of God, of the holy angels, and of His saints.They are furthermore called Iconoclasts, because they have shown deliberate dishonor to all these same holy and venerable images and have consigned them to be broken up and burnt.
Likewise, some of those painted on walls they have scraped off, while others they have obliterated with whitewash and black paint. They are also called Thymoleontes, or Lion-hearted, because, taking advantage of their authority, they have with great heart given strength to their heresy and with torment and torture visited vengeance upon those who approve of the images.
On Heresies.
In, Saint John of Damascus: Writings (The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 37), 1958, 1999, Frederic H. Chase, Trans., Catholic University of America Press, ISBN 0813209684 ISBN 9780813209685, p. 160
https://books.google.fr/books?id=H9w...ans%22&f=false
https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur009511mbp
The reason why, without looking, I think exactly that work contains "theocatagnostic heresy" (or synonym in Latin, it means "despising God" [or by extension His saints]), is that I found a reference it contained another of the heresies I recalled from the list, that of the "thneotopsychitae" - those who think the soul dies with the body and doesn't exist again until resurrection (rehashed by JW as you may be aware). And here is my reference for that:
This is from:
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/L%E2%...HNETOPSYCHITES
(Sorry for using this condemned work, but it contained the reference I found)
Originally posted by Roy View PostSo it's not a prophecy. It may be equivalent to an extremely vague and untestable prophecy if certain beliefs are correct, but it is not a prophecy.
It is on one particular point not vague or untestable at all ...
Originally posted by Roy View PostNeither pf those phrases occur in Matt 28:20. The verse does not say what you think it says.
And not a day off implies, by an a fortiori, not even fifty years off.
And this is a test implication for if the man the eleven saw fly up to Heaven or claimed to have seen really was seen and really was God.
If you can pinpoint a single time in which the Church did not exist between then and now, you have refuted His claim of being God, you would have proven He were just a man who could not prophecy, or even worse.
The problem with Protestantism is, while they don't agree on pinpointing a beginning for when there was no - or at least no adequate - Church, they agree such a period existed, since they regard the Reformation as the end of it.http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html
Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!
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Originally posted by hansgeorg View PostI looked along, and think the work should be "On Heresies" by St John of Damascus.
That is a list of heretical attitudes rather than of specific sects. Theocatagnostic should be one on the list, but I do not find it, here I found another one on wikiquote:
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_of_Damascus
It links to:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=H9w...ans%22&f=false
https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur009511mbp
The reason why, without looking, I think exactly that work contains "theocatagnostic heresy" ...This is from:
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/L%E2%...HNETOPSYCHITES
(Sorry for using this condemned work, but it contained the reference I found)
Also this, among many others:
THEOCATAGNOSTES: a sect of heretics who presumed to find fault with certain words and actions of God, and to blame many things in the scriptures.
I don't think OBP is one of them, and you owe him an apology.
But thanks for reminding everyone that the Catholic Church engages in censorship.Then you don't know what the relation is between "prophecy" in the Biblical sense and "promises of God". A promise of God is a prophecy, and the major prophecies of the OT were promises by God about Our Lord Jesus Christ.
You are unconvincing.Neither pf those phrases occur in Matt 28:20. The verse does not say what you think it says.
That verse does not say what you claim it does.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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92. The Theocatagnoastae, who are called Blasphemers, try to find fault with [the Lord] for certain words and actions, as well as with the holy persons associated with Him and with the sacred Scriptures. They are foolhardy and blasphemous people.
I took that as meaning, simply, the saints.http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html
Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!
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Originally posted by hansgeorg View PostBecause I was googling "theocatagnostic" and "theokatagnostic", not a noun. Here is the reference from the google books version, transscribed by me:
Key words relevant: as well as with the holy persons associated with Him
I took that as meaning, simply, the saints.
You owe One Bad Pig a retraction and an apology.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostIt does not follow from ignorance that the doctrine cannot be known. The doctrine remains in the sources of revelation.
But it does follow from ignorance that the doctrine is not known.
Either the majority of Catholics come to know the truth about geocentrism, or the majority of Catholics do not come to know the truth about geocentrism.
Pick one.
We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresySun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world; and that an opinion may be held and defended as probably after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to the Holy Scripture; and that consequently you have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated in the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against such delinquents. From which we are content that you be absolved, provided that, first, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, you abjure, curse, and detest before use the aforesaid errors and heresies and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church in the form to be prescribed by us for you.
JM
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Originally posted by Roy View PostThe Westminster Confession was written 1600 years after the apostles were preaching. That's plenty of time for the oral transmission of the gospel to cease.
And yet you have provided no evidence that the oral gospel has ceased.
I don't need to.
You are comparing two pictures taken 1600 years apart and stating it is a problem that they are different. It is not a problem if something could have happened during those 1600 years to cause the differences.
If some-one showed me a painting of London painted in 400AD and a photograph of London taken yesterday, I wouldn't need to provide evidence that builders had been at work between the creation of the two images. 1600 years is plenty of time for builders to build buildings.
1600 years is also plenty of time for gospel transmission methods to have changed. If you want the differences between the NT and the Westminster Confession to be classed as a problem, you need to show that no such change is possible.
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."
You haven't done that. What you have done is provide evidence for the change:
You only assume time has killed off the oral gospel. Nowhere in the NT did Jesus command any text to be written by any apostle. Jesus told the apostles to preach the gospel and that is what they did. Subsequently some of the apostles wrote down some of the gospel in the NT.
So the apostles started sharing the gospel as a written document. The means of sharing the gospel can and did change. Could oral transmission have ceased during the subsequent 1600 years? Yes. Therefore the Westminster confession describing that is not a problem unless you can show that oral transmission did not cease and the Westminster confession is wrong.
Otherwise the response to your 'problem' is simply that there is no problem because oral transmission of the gospel could have ceased during the 1600 year gap between the NT and the Westminster confession.
2 Timothy 1:13-14 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me . . . guard the truth which has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.
2 Timothy 2:2 And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
2 Timothy 4:2 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching.
Church history shows your answer is false. The NT canon was not formally made until after Athanasius came up with correct canon in the 4th C. So up until the Church made a binding decision on the extent of the canon, all the Church had until then was the liturgical practice of using the NT books within the liturgy and the apostolic tradition that said some books were inspired. For over 365 years, the Church used tradition and the scriptures within the liturgy as the normative rule of faith. When the entire canon was formalised at the councils of Hippo, Carthage, Florence, Trent, and Vaican I, tradition and the liturgical practice did not cease. The formalisation of the canon only means the number and extent of the inspired texts are known. The canonisation of the text does not infer tradition has ceased, and the oral gospel is no longer binding. We know this because -
- The Church teaches that tradition is binding.
- The scriptures teach that tradition is binding and is carried through generations of Christians.
- The Catholic faith is a faith that is lived, which assumes a lived tradition passed from one generation to the next. Such traidtion is not lost, or abandoned because of the finalisation of the canon.
Hence the Westminster confession is in error when it teaches that the only souce of revelation is the scriptures.
Why doesn't document X describe event Y that occurred after document X was written? Because event Y occurred after document X was written. Problem resolved.
That you fail to understand this trivial point is all the evidence of your ineptitude and lack of understanding that is necessary.
JMLast edited by JohnMartin; 11-25-2016, 09:59 PM.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostGeocentrism is not a doctrine of the Catholic Church. As there is no theological, or moral truth connected to the scientific claim of geocentrism, then the Church can make no binding claim about it. The only time it can make a binding claim about natural philosophy, is when the truth of such a statement is implied by other theological or natural truths, such as the monogenesis of mankind.
This has been pointed out to John Martin many times in the past.
JM
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostThe 1633 Papal condemnation of Galileo's moving Earth theory correctly expresses the modern Catholic belief in a stationary Earth. The Papal teaching correctly expressed the revelation made by God in the scriptures. As such, the Papal teaching which has never been revoked, remains normative and binding on the faithful.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostSo on the basis of your personal interpretation of a misremembered reference written five centuries too early, you accused a fellow Christian of heresy.
You owe One Bad Pig a retraction and an apology.
He hasn't asked for one.http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html
Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!
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Originally posted by Roy View PostSo your way of counting Matt 28:20 as a "prophecy" is to redefine "prophecy", misrepresent the old testament, and ignore that old testament prophecies contained details about events rather than being vague promises of continuity.
As a divine promise is a prophecy, so is a divine order, the passage also contains a prophecy bearing on all nations becoming Catholic or at least getting an oportunity to become so.
Some take this as meaning, the world cannot end yet, because this or that nation is not yet a fully Catholic nation.
Originally posted by Roy View PostYou are unconvincing.That phrase isn't in the verse either - and even if you take "always" as synonymous to "not a day off" (which it isn't) it still only applies to Jesus's presence, not to the teaching.
That verse does not say what you claim it does.
πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας = omnibus diebus = all days
Jesus cannot be present, if his teaching is defiled.
Which is why Protestants who think Catholicism did defile the original teaching also do not think Christ is with the Catholic Church.
The problem is, they are only explaining why Christ is not all days with the Catholic Church, not why or how it can have been even up to now all days with ecclesiastical bodies going back to only a few centuries ago.
And the Reformers did not look after another Church in which Christ would have been all days up to then (like Orthodox, like two branches of Monophysite / Three Council, like Nestorian or Two Council), they started one in which they knew Christ had not been a single day of AD 1500.
Originally posted by Roy View PostErr... yes it has. It's tested every time someone uses the orbital equations to predict a body's location.
Originally posted by Roy View PostIt's tested every time some-one points a telescope,
Originally posted by Roy View Postor launches a satellite,
It is possible that satellite orbits do illustrate the dynamics posited, at least somewhat, and especially if a satellite can go on in a graveyard orbit forever without added fuel expenses, but we do not have them up since centuries, only a shorter time, and I cannot exclude that angelic movers have sth to do with satellites staying up either.
Originally posted by Roy View Postor flies an aeroplane long-distance,
Originally posted by Roy View Postor sets an alarm clock for dawn.
Originally posted by Roy View PostThen tell me how the "Angelic movers" theory predicts solar eclipses.
Originally posted by Roy View PostIt was revoked in Discorsi dei Papi alla Pontificia Accademia delle Scienze (1936-1993) (Vatican: Pontificia Academia Scientiarum, 1994)
Pius XI already?
Pius XII whom for other reasons I consider as apostate?
The ensuing ones, whom most sedevacantists consider as apostates?http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html
Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!
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Originally posted by Roy View PostIt was revoked in Discorsi dei Papi alla Pontificia Accademia delle Scienze (1936-1993) (Vatican: Pontificia Academia Scientiarum, 1994)
JM
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Originally posted by hansgeorg View PostYou confused w h a t I was offering to backup with the backup I intend to give, if you start challenging the items on the string.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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