Originally posted by tabibito
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Ancient of Days, Indeed
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Agreed - God is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
Given that spirits usually seem to have a discrete existence, ("legion," ghosts, et al) the simple statement that God is spirit doesn't address the issue of location of the Father.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostAgreed - God is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
Given that spirits usually seem to have a discrete existence, ("legion," ghosts, et al) the simple statement that God is spirit doesn't address the issue of location of the Father.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Assertions that God may physically be situated in a location rather than everywhere present sounds like a slippery slope into Mormon/Jehovah Witness doctrine.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostWhere does the Lord's prayer claim that the Father is?
Likewise, when Solomon was dedicating the temple (the "dwelling place" of God on earth) he prays,
Originally posted by tabibito View PostYup - The Holy Spirit, and therefore God, is omnipresent beyond all doubt. Scripture is less certain about Christ, except as situational (where believers are gathered) + Jesus stating that if he does not return to the Father (Fathers location elsewhere being thereby asserted) the Holy Spirit will not come. Scripture itself doesn't seem to locate the Father as anywhere but heaven.
Other passages that discuss the transcendent and omnipresent nature of God include,
And dozens of other verses referring to God being with us, knowing our thoughts, our secret sins, our hearts desires, etc., refer back to his omniscience and omnipresence.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostAssertions that God may physically be situated in a location rather than everywhere present sounds like a slippery slope into Mormon/Jehovah Witness doctrine.
It seems to me that references to "our Father in heaven," or "heavenly Father" aren't intended to describe God as living spatially or physically (or dimensionally, perhaps) in some heavenly place. In order to read it that way, you'd have to argue that the writer of Matthew wasn't familiar with passages that seem to indicate that God is omnipresent in the Old Testament. Rather, I'd argue that the point of using the phrase "Father in heaven" in the Lord's Prayer is to address both God's sovereignty over heaven that is to come down to earth, and the Gospel writer's deliberate contrast between the nature of heavenly/holy God in contrast to earthly humanity. Far from indicating that he is localized, the use of the endearing term Father/Abba is meant to add tension to the phrase "who is in heaven," indicating both God's familiarity, and his distinctiveness, his immanence and transcendence.
Likewise, when Solomon was dedicating the temple (the "dwelling place" of God on earth) he prays,
As far as I can tell, there's nothing in that passage that points specifically to the the Holy Spirit alone. I looked through a few commentaries on Psalms, and couldn't find anything that would suggest that. God the Father is a spirit.
Other passages that discuss the transcendent and omnipresent nature of God include,
And dozens of other verses referring to God being with us, knowing our thoughts, our secret sins, our hearts desires, etc., refer back to his omniscience and omnipresence.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by TabibitoSo, is there a scripture somewhere that shows the Father to not be in heaven at some given time, or that he is present on Earth (or someplace else) even while he is in heaven?
Ezekiel 1 seems to include all three persons traveling and meeting Ezekiel near the river. Notably, one figure is shown, which the text calls the Word of Jehovah, but three voices are mentioned coming from the throne.
So God the Father does sometimes descend out of heaven, and then ascend back.
Proverbs 30:4
And that is another possible explanation for Chrawnus's verse that heaven cannot "contain" God. However, I think the easier, better answer is that the verse is just saying that Holy Spirit serves as the Father's eyes and ears.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostExodus 33 and the surrounding chapters seem to show the Father descending on Mount Sinai.
If Jesus was right in saying that no man had seen the Father at any time, this would not lend itself to the Father being seen by Moses. Either of the other persons of the trinity, certainly. I'm fairly sure that Logos would be the one.
Ezekiel 1 seems to include all three persons traveling and meeting Ezekiel near the river. Notably, one figure is shown, which the text calls the Word of Jehovah, but three voices are mentioned coming from the throne.
So God the Father does sometimes descend out of heaven, and then ascend back.
Proverbs 30:4
And that is another possible explanation for Chrawnus's verse that heaven cannot "contain" God. However, I think the easier, better answer is that the verse is just saying that Holy Spirit serves as the Father's eyes and ears.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibitoExodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
The heavens were opened and Ezekiel saw visions of God.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostAssertions that God may physically be situated in a location rather than everywhere present sounds like a slippery slope into Mormon/Jehovah Witness doctrine.
It seems to me that references to "our Father in heaven," or "heavenly Father" aren't intended to describe God as living spatially or physically (or dimensionally, perhaps) in some heavenly place. In order to read it that way, you'd have to argue that the writer of Matthew wasn't familiar with passages that seem to indicate that God is omnipresent in the Old Testament. Rather, I'd argue that the point of using the phrase "Father in heaven" in the Lord's Prayer is to address both God's sovereignty over heaven that is to come down to earth, and the Gospel writer's deliberate contrast between the nature of heavenly/holy God in contrast to earthly humanity. Far from indicating that he is localized, the use of the endearing term Father/Abba is meant to add tension to the phrase "who is in heaven," indicating both God's familiarity, and his distinctiveness, his immanence and transcendence.
I'm always still in trouble again
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"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostCould it be just a way to make clear which Father is being referenced -- our heavenly Father as opposed to our earthly one?
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Originally posted by seer View PostChrist does say that no one has seen His "form." Suggesting that God does have form, and a form would be localized. Though His power and reach would still be universal.
But ultimately, I think God in his entirety is incomprehensible to humans. The reason we'll never be bored in heaven is because we'll spend an eternity learning everything there is to know about an infinite being.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostGod allowed Moses to see his back suggesting some form.
But ultimately, I think God in his entirety is incomprehensible to humans. The reason we'll never be bored in heaven is because we'll spend an eternity learning everything there is to know about an infinite being.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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