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Originally posted by seer View PostHe always knew that certain men would never accept Him, yet He still allowed them to come into this world.
I agree those are good proof texts for Arminianism, yet the Calvinist can list text after text for his position too.
That is another good Arminian point. The Calvinist would say that that would just mean that we had to give all glory to God for our salvation. But let me ask you, if you find, in the end, that it was of all God and none of you concerning your salvation is that really going to upset you in the afterlife.
Short answer is probably more disappointment than anything....that I was so wrong after diligently studying Scripture."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo the question is, why is the Holy Spirit working in one man and not the other?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by seer View PostThe question comes when we face a contradiction, if something contradicts Scripture then Scripture must win. For instance, if I believed that YEC was the case and evolution could not be reconciled with Scripture, I would take Scripture over Science - all day long...
In the case where there appeared to be clear evidence that contradicted the Bible on any given point, my first instinct would be to suspect that we had either misunderstood the evidence, or misunderstood the Bible, and not that the Bible itself was in error.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostSince one thing you and I absolutely agree on is that Scripture is the final authority, how do you back up that statement from Scripture.
Proof texts are that without context, I agree, but I don't believe mine are proof texts because of the context (which I didn't quote because of time and space) I've yet to see a Calvinist proof text that could not be explained under an Arminian Hermeneutic using the context of the chapter around it. Also, you probably don't know this (or remember it) but I was discipled as a new Christian in 3 - 4 point Calvinist church. My first true mentor (outside of my Dad who is also a 3 pointer) was a 4 point youth pastor. Years of study convinced me that it was the wrong hermeneutic. I'm an Open Theist which is more free will leaning than the standard Arminian...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThere are claims to inspiration all through both Testaments, you either buy that or you don't.
Originally posted by seer View PostBut God knows that whether you believe in free will or not. He always knew that certain men would never accept Him, yet He still allowed them to come into this world.
And I have spent years as both a Calvinist and later an Arminian - and I just don't know who is correct. And BTW I have never heard a good answer for Romans 9:6-24 from the Arminian side...
This is very, VERY significant. Paul wraps up chapter 9 by explaining everything he's been talking about...by pointing to the morally responsible choices of both Jews and Gentiles (of having faith in Messiah) Because, THE one thing God has alwaysLast edited by Littlejoe; 02-06-2019, 05:07 PM."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostI meant how do you back up the statement below with scripture (since I accept, as you do, Scripture as the final authority):
But God knows that whether you believe in free will or not. He always knew that certain men would never accept Him, yet He still allowed them to come into this world.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostJoe, first I will take more time to re-read your points on Romans 9 (did you write that yourself?). Second, I'm not clear on what you are asking here.
Paraphrased from my notes in a thread (which I'm not finding right now for some reason)that was similar to this very subject."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostWhat Scripture do you see that supports the statement that "But God knows that whether you believe in free will or not, He always knew that certain men would never accept Him, yet He still allowed them to come into the world." Is that based on Romans 8 and 9?
Paraphrased from my notes in a thread (which I'm not finding right now for some reason)that was similar to this very subject.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo, I assumed that we both agree that God has foreknowledge.
OK..."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostWell, yes God knows what you believe or don't believe in, but...No, as an Open Theist, I believe that God doesn't always know the free will decisions of people. There's lot of instances of that both in the Old Testament and New. It's certainly a tough concept for most people to embrace. (I don't expect you to find it convincing though.)Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI understand Open Theism, I read Greg Boyd years ago. But even there, God would certainly know that there would be people He created that would be lost.
Second, what if Calvinists are correct, that God elects some and passes other by. Are we saying God is obligated to save rebels?
With open theism, how would Christ know that before the rooster crowed Peter would deny him me three times?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
Comment
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostDoes God know that there are people He created that will be lost? Sure, but it's a stretch to say that the Bible supports the notion that God knows before He created them that they would, indeed, refuse His free gift. If God is a God of His Word, (and we both believe He is) then God must give each person a chance to accept His Son as the payment for their sins, otherwise, it's a false promise. Limited Atonement is unsupportable from Scripture.
If by this do you mean do I believe in Universal Salvation? If so, then no I do not. Is God obligated to save those that stay in rebellion to him? No. It's a common saying among Calvinist that God is not obligated to save anyone...that's not true, God was not obligated to before Christ came, but afterward, His promise now reigns supreme. He promised He would save all who trust in His Son Jesus. God doesn't break His promise.
Before I give you an explanation, I would ask if you understand Open (View) Theism (OVT) then how do you think they would answer the question? Do you believe that while on earth, Christ was Omniscient? If so, then show why you believe that. If not, why do you credit this with proving absolute foreknowledge (Omniscience) and not his power, (Omnipotence)?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI'm not sure what you mean Joe, most of humanity, for most of history never heard the Gospel. How did they have the opportunity to receive Christ?
Where does the Bible say that God PROMISED to save everyone?
I said that God promised to save "everyone who trusts in His Son" . I never said He promised to save everyone.
I believe it was possible that Christ was not omniscient on earth, but God the Father always was, and Christ was in constant communication with the Father. BTW - I don't think Open Theists have a good explanation. Lucky guess?
There are several different ways this could have happened without Omniscience (absolute foreknowledge). Omnipotence would do it, i.e. God says this is going to happen and He just....makes it happen.
Another more nuanced way would include Jesus knowing Peter better than Peter knew himself and the whole point of this "predictions" was to bring Peter to a point that he would recognize he was actually a coward at heart and was only brave when Jesus was around doing miracles etc. Jesus who knew the time was short, (Judas was already in the process betraying him) also, He knew Satan was going to attack Peter. "...Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to have you, (past tense) that he might sift you like wheat..." Notice that Bible Gateway footnotes that in vs. 31 "you" is plural...IOW, Jesus is talking to ALL of them (the disciples) but in vs. 32, Jesus shifts to a singular "you". Speaking only of Peter. So, Jesus knew all the disciples hearts and knew that Peters faith was so weak that he would deny him if push came to shove. Next, It would not have been anything to convince Peter to follow Jesus to the courtyard. Peter had been traveling with Jesus for over 3 years and was pretty well known. That a juicy piece of gossip would be in the works when Jesus is hauled into court in the middle of the night would have had anyone curious as to why. Seeing someone who had been his disciple for over 3 years there, it would be a natural question would it not? Hey! Your one of his disciples, what's going on? No, I don't know him. Are you sure? I know I've seen you with him. See, simple for God to see how this was going to go. To give you a simple example, if I offer my oldest son a choice between a bowl of Mint Chocolate Chip Ice Cream OR a bowl of steamed broccoli, I can tell you without even asking him which one he will choose one million times out of one million. He loves Mint Chocolate chip ice cream and absolutely HATES broccoli. If I being a mere mortal can make a determination like that, how much more can God who is infinitely more intelligent than I am.Last edited by Littlejoe; 02-10-2019, 11:11 PM."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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