Originally posted by Hornet
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I'm in complete agreement with you here!
Ummm...what? If you think St. Paul is resorting to bluster and browbeating and thereby proceeding fallaciously, then you do not understand the argument he is making. Romans 9 isn't about deterministic individual salvation...that's not the point of the chapter. (Or Ch. 10 & 11 which are a continuation of the argument he IS making)
You are correct that if Romans 9 is read with a deterministic view of salvation that Paul is being fallacious, but that is never the thrust of the argument....but it shouldn't be read that way because that's not the issue being addressed. The issue Paul is addressing is whether or not . That is to say, simply on the basis of their faithanything"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Calvinists must go through great contortions to make sense of 2 Peter 3:9 IMO. John Piper at least attempts to honestly articulate the full implications of his view (as noted above)."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostCalvinists must go through great contortions to make sense of 2 Peter 3:9 IMO. John Piper at least attempts to honestly articulate the full implications of his view (as noted above)."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Romans 5:18 which says, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." When Adam sinned, everyone was counted as condemned. How can this be? It can be explained in this way: Adam is our representative. God saw us in Adam. When Adam sinned, it was like God saw us sinning along with Adam.
Southerners living in 2018 don't have the same relationship with the people living during the American Civil War as Adam has with us.
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To briefly add: I don't have any emotional objections to Calvinism. (Being an annihilationist, the "sting" of people spending eternity in hell without any opportunity to avoid it is removed.) I simply don't find it to be an accurate model of Scripture."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostRomans 5:18 which says, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." When Adam sinned, everyone was counted as condemned. How can this be? It can be explained in this way: Adam is our representative. God saw us in Adam. When Adam sinned, it was like God saw us sinning along with Adam.
Southerners living in 2018 don't have the same relationship with the people living during the American Civil War as Adam has with us.
is
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostRomans 5:18 which says, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." When Adam sinned, everyone was counted as condemned. How can this be? It can be explained in this way: Adam is our representative. God saw us in Adam. When Adam sinned, it was like God saw us sinning along with Adam.
Southerners living in 2018 don't have the same relationship with the people living during the American Civil War as Adam has with us.
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostIt is one thing for Adam to represent us - but a very different matter, for the sin of Adam to be regarded as being chargeable to us as though we had in person committed it.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostTo briefly add: I don't have any emotional objections to Calvinism. (Being an annihilationist, the "sting" of people spending eternity in hell without any opportunity to avoid it is removed.) I simply don't find it to be an accurate model of Scripture.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostThe doctrine of inherited guilt consists of more than just the fact that we are descendants of Adam and that Adam is our representative. The doctrine also consists of the idea that God thought of us all as having sinned when Adam sinned. God does not necessarily think that the Southerners who descended from the Southerners of 1861 to 1865 sinned when the Southerners of 1861 to 1865 sinned.Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 07-25-2018, 02:19 AM.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostMy main issue with Calvinism is increasingly that it removes all responsibility from the believer for his/her state. Where you end up depends entirely on God, and your inputs don't matter; what you do and what you believe are immaterial. I find that to be fundamentally incompatible with Scripture.
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostThat last sentence re-states the problem. If inherited guilt is theologically real in the one case, why not in the other ? And if not in the latter, why in the former ? ... The Reformed understanding of OS, looks unjust.
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people [because they sinned, because of a sin nature, cf. Rom. 5:12], so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostMy main issue with Calvinism is increasingly that it removes all responsibility from the believer for his/her state. Where you end up depends entirely on God, and your inputs don't matter; what you do and what you believe are immaterial. I find that to be fundamentally incompatible with Scripture."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Scrawly View PostCalvinists should (and most, I think, do) hold divine sovereignty and human responsibility in tension, believing the bible teaches both. It should be regarded as an apparent contradiction (from our finite pov) and not an ultimate contradiction; acknowledging God's often higher, unsearchable, and inscrutable ways.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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