Knowing for sure one is going to heaven

[Obsidian]

I wonder how many people would have even chosen to become "Christians" in the first place, if they had both 1) understood the full law of God, and 2) believed that salvation were contingent on keeping the law. Further, I don't think the unregenerate can understand the full law of God, so premise #1 is impossible.

[KingsGambit]

I wonder how many people would have even chosen to become "Christians" in the first place, if they had both 1) understood the full law of God, and 2) believed that salvation were contingent on keeping the law. Further, I don't think the unregenerate can understand the full law of God, so premise #1 is impossible.

Just to be clear, you're not equating the necessity for a faith to come with action to a full keeping of the OT law, right?

[JonathanL]

You phrased it, ". . . it is the faith that drives our works which does." Our "works which does?" Could you clarify this? Did you mean our "works which does faith?" James in his example the works which does faith (Genesis 15:6) came years latter (Genesis 22:). I agree that dead faith can save no one. Yet it is that faith which produces the works of God, without those works by which one is saved and justified. Would you not agree?

OBP wrote: "Our works do not save, per se; it is the faith that drives our works which does".

It's obvious to me that what he means is that genuine work-producing faith is what saves, not the works that are produced from that faith. I'm having a hard time understanding what's so confusing about OBP's phrasing. It's completely clear, atleast to me. In fact, I'm having a hard time understanding how it could be parsed any other way than the way I'm parsing it.

[Obsidian]

Just to be clear, you're not equating the necessity for a faith to come with action to a full keeping of the OT law, right?

I don't know; I'm not the one who claims that we gain eternal life by keeping the law. But Bad Pig apparently believes that Christians are judged by the law. Since no one can keep the law fully (especially given that the temple is destroyed), I would imagine that he probably gives Christians some considerable latitude in keeping it. Maybe they have to keep it 50% in order to get to heaven.

[KingsGambit]

I don't know; I'm not the one who claims that we gain eternal life by keeping the law.

Nobody in this thread is claiming that.

[JonathanL]

I don't know; I'm not the one who claims that we gain eternal life by keeping the law. But Bad Pig apparently believes that Christians are judged by the law. Since no one can keep the law fully (especially given that the temple is destroyed), I would imagine that he probably gives Christians some considerable latitude in keeping it. Maybe they have to keep it 50% in order to get to heaven.

I have never seen OBP claiming anywhere on these forums that we gain eternal life by keeping the law. Quite the contrary in fact, if what he wrote in #53 is to be taken seriously.

[Obsidian]

So we're judged by it, and if we don't keep it then we are damned, but we don't inherit eternal life by it. I see.

[KingsGambit]

So we're judged by it, and if we don't keep it then we are damned, but we don't inherit eternal life by it. I see.

How do you interpret Romans 7:7?

[Truthseeker]

Obsidian, what do you think "false faith" means? "Faith that is not really faith at all"? Or just bad grammar?

[JonathanL]

So we're judged by it, and if we don't keep it then we are damned, but we don't inherit eternal life by it. I see.

Please refrain from being snarky until after you've provided the necessary evidence that OPB does indeed hold to the position you're trying to force upon him. Or you could refrain from being snarky altogether, given how badly you fail at it.

[Obsidian]

I should correct myself. Bad Pig did explicitly deny that we are judged by the law. He denied it, in direct contradiction of scripture (James 2:13) that says that we are judged by the law.

@Truthseeker

The Bible never uses the term "false faith." As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't mean anything.

[The Remonstrant]

Personally I believe salvation is by intellectual assent only. Genuine repentance and faith are extraneous and may potentially lead to damnation if one is not careful.

[37818]

OBP wrote: "Our works do not save, per se; it is the faith that drives our works which does".

It's obvious to me that what he means is that genuine work-producing faith is what saves, not the works that are produced from that faith. I'm having a hard time understanding what's so confusing about OBP's phrasing. It's completely clear, atleast to me. In fact, I'm having a hard time understanding how it could be parsed any other way than the way I'm parsing it.

Well, thank you.

[37818]

I wonder how many people would have even chosen to become "Christians" in the first place, if they had both 1) understood the full law of God, and 2) believed that salvation were contingent on keeping the law. Further, I don't think the unregenerate can understand the full law of God, so premise #1 is impossible.

The first time I read a short gospel message (age 12). It was in back of a Gidion NT my dad gave me, which he had gotten in WWII. I asked him about signing the back. And from what I understood if I did that I would have to keep all of God's laws. Which I understood, I knew I could not. It was not until about 2 years later, at a baptist church where we were invited, before the main service, two adults came and asked me, if "I knew for sure if I died, if I would go to heaven?" I did not. And then asked me if I would like to know, I did. And they lead me to Christ. That was an exciting moment in my life. The very idea that I can know for sure.

[Obsidian]

two adults came and asked me, if "I knew for sure if I died, if I would go to heaven?" I did not. And then asked me if I would like to know, I did. And they lead me to Christ. That was an exciting moment in my life. The very idea that I can know for sure.

I honestly feel like that's the main point of the gospel. A person can't go out and fight for the kingdom if he isn't even sure he belongs to the kingdom. A person can't go out and try to store up treasure in heaven, if he is still worried about going to hell. You need to know that your diligence in doing good will actually amount to something, that it won't be erased later on because you commit a sin.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Genuine repentance and faith are extraneous and may potentially lead to damnation if one is not careful.

I don't understand what you mean.