Knowing for sure one is going to heaven

[KingsGambit]

No, what I said was that in the context, being worse off than in the beginning refers to being a greater slave of sin. You are assuming that it refers to eternal damnation. And in fact, that passage doesn't even refer to losing faith.

You're right, I'm sorry. But if the person is saved, how can they possibly be in a worse state than they were before they were saved?

[Bill the Cat]

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, . . . if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It is referring either to the animal sacrifices, or to the persecution of Christians. Most likely the former. The topic of animal sacrifice is also discussed elsewhere in the book.

No. It is referring to aligning one's self with those who crucified Him, or as the writer says later in Chapter 10, "who has trampled the Son of God underfoot".

[37818]

Context is not unimportant. John is combating proto-gnostic beliefs throughout the work, and that needs to be kept in mind when interpreting it. On a more obvious level, the words you quote are preceded by "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God". If someone no longer believes in the name of the Son of God, but once did, does that person still have eternal life?

At the judgment, the lost perish, and the saved who "have" eternal life go on into the new heaven and earth. I dare say those who perish never knew they had eternal life. It is my take, to know one has eternal life means one will not lose that life. The only ones who "loose eternal life" are the ones who never obtained it. And they didn't really know. Most nominal Christians, do not know, and would say so. No one [in general] knows when they are going to die. So only those who will not have there name blotted out of the book of life, are the sons of God and being saved know they now have eternal life. Those who have eternal life know God personally. (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20. John 14:6.)

[Bill the Cat]

At the judgment, the lost perish, and the saved who "have" eternal life go on into the new heaven and earth. I dare say those who perish never knew they had eternal life. It is my take, to know one has eternal life means one will not lose that life. The only ones who "loose eternal life" are the ones who never obtained it. And they didn't really know. Most nominal Christians, do not know, and would say so. No one [in general] knows when they are going to die. So only those who will not have there name blotted out of the book of life, are the sons of God and being saved know they now have eternal life. Those who have eternal life know God personally. (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20. John 14:6.)

And who gets their name blotted out of the book, and who has it written in there? And those who HAD it written in there, but were LATER blotted out?

[KingsGambit]

On the flipside, I would say that a number of nominal Christians, or believers in general folk religion, are quite confident that they are bound for eternal glory.

[Obsidian]

No. It is referring to aligning one's self with those who crucified Him

I don't really see where you get that interpretation from. Further, even assuming this interpretation were correct, it would not disprove what I said about the possibility of repentance. You're looking solely at the part that says it's impossible to repent. You are ignoring the condition behind that assessment.

But if the person is saved, how can they possibly be in a worse state than they were before they were saved?

A gnostic will generally be more immoral than an unsaved Jew. The false teachers described in this chapter seem to be teaching people that it is good to sin. So the hearers wind up with less liberty than when they started. That is all it is saying.

Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit,
so a fool returneth to his folly.

Also, have you not ever personally observed someone who was foolish, and seemed to become even more foolish over time? In my experience, unless a fool definitively tries to abandon his foolishness by fearing God, it is virtually inevitable that this decline will occur. They always wind up in a worse state.

[KingsGambit]

I don't really see where you get that interpretation from. Further, even assuming this interpretation were correct, it would not disprove what I said about the possibility of repentance. You're looking solely at the part that says it's impossible to repent. You are ignoring the condition behind that assessment.



A gnostic will generally be more immoral than an unsaved Jew. The false teachers described in this chapter seem to be teaching people that it is good to sin. So the hearers wind up with less liberty than when they started. That is all it is saying.

Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit,
so a fool returneth to his folly.

Also, have you not ever personally observed someone who was foolish, and seemed to become even more foolish over time? In my experience, unless a fool definitively tries to abandon his foolishness by fearing God, it is virtually inevitable that this decline will occur. They always wind up in a worse state.

If taken in isolation, I agree that this passage could refer to such a state, but how do we not apply it to eternal judgment given that the entire chapter before this point warns of eternal punishment in fairly explicit terms?

[Obsidian]

The chapter in general is about the judgment of the prophets, while also touching upon the doctrines of the prophets. In verses 10-16, it talks fairly extensively about about the doctrines of the prophets and to a lesser extent also mentions their judgment. Then in either verse 17 or 18 (depending on interpretation), it focuses even more heavily on the doctrines of the prophets. It explains that their doctrines enslave people. The verse you are referring to, verse 20, occurs within this section. In my view, it is referring to the enslavement of the people who listen to the prophets.

[One Bad Pig]

At the judgment, the lost perish, and the saved who "have" eternal life go on into the new heaven and earth. I dare say those who perish never knew they had eternal life. It is my take, to know one has eternal life means one will not lose that life. The only ones who "loose eternal life" are the ones who never obtained it. And they didn't really know.

Let's look at a couple passages on the final judgment:


Why do you think people will be protesting? Clearly it is because they disagree with it - IOW, they thought they would be judged otherwise, and have eternal life.

Most nominal Christians, do not know, and would say so.

You are flat wrong on this. If you look at the statistics on who believes in heaven vs. those who attend church regularly, there's a vast difference - and I dare say most people who believe in heaven think they'll end up there.

[One Bad Pig]

If taken in isolation, I agree that this passage could refer to such a state, but how do we not apply it to eternal judgment given that the entire chapter before this point warns of eternal punishment in fairly explicit terms?

More than one passage is being brought up in this thread. Could you please more explicitly identify what you're talking about? I've lost track.

[KingsGambit]

More than one passage is being brought up in this thread. Could you please more explicitly identify what you're talking about? I've lost track.

I'm responding to Obsidian's claim that 2 Peter 2:20-22 does not refer to one being in a worse state because of their eternal state (the obvious interpretation), but rather to them being in a state where, while they are still saved because they professed faith at one point, they are "worse off" than before their salvation because they are more mired in sin.

[Bill the Cat]

I don't really see where you get that interpretation from.

From the text. When one "crucifies the Lord anew", they stand with those who crucified Him in the first place.

Further, even assuming this interpretation were correct, it would not disprove what I said about the possibility of repentance.

Sure it does. It says it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.

You're looking solely at the part that says it's impossible to repent. You are ignoring the condition behind that assessment.

No I am not. There is no hint that renewing them to repentance becomes suddenly possible. It says it is impossible. Once your name is blotted out of the book of life, it can not be unblotted.

[One Bad Pig]

I'm responding to Obsidian's claim that 2 Peter 2:20-22 does not refer to one being in a worse state because of their eternal state (the obvious interpretation), but rather to them being in a state where, while they are still saved because they professed faith at one point, they are "worse off" than before their salvation because they are more mired in sin.

Thank you.

[KingsGambit]

Thank you.

I know I have a really bad habit of not using the quote feature enough. I'm working on it.

[37818]

And who gets their name blotted out of the book, and who has it written in there? And those who HAD it written in there, but were LATER blotted out?

It is my understanding that by reason Christ die for all (1 John 2:2) everyone's name is in the book of life. Those who "overcome the world" by believing in Christ (1 John 5:1, 4, 5) have the promises of not having one's name blotted out and not be subject to the second death (Revelation 3:5; Revelation 2:11; Revelation 21:7). Those whose names are blotted out those who do not receive Christ (Psalm 69:27, 28).