Originally posted by Obsidian
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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining "Christian" or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining "Christian" or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Knowing for sure one is going to heaven
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostFor it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, . . . if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
It is referring either to the animal sacrifices, or to the persecution of Christians. Most likely the former. The topic of animal sacrifice is also discussed elsewhere in the book.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostContext is not unimportant. John is combating proto-gnostic beliefs throughout the work, and that needs to be kept in mind when interpreting it. On a more obvious level, the words you quote are preceded by "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God". If someone no longer believes in the name of the Son of God, but once did, does that person still have eternal life?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostAt the judgment, the lost perish, and the saved who "have" eternal life go on into the new heaven and earth. I dare say those who perish never knew they had eternal life. It is my take, to know one has eternal life means one will not lose that life. The only ones who "loose eternal life" are the ones who never obtained it. And they didn't really know. Most nominal Christians, do not know, and would say so. No one [in general] knows when they are going to die. So only those who will not have there name blotted out of the book of life, are the sons of God and being saved know they now have eternal life. Those who have eternal life know God personally. (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20. John 14:6.)That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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On the flipside, I would say that a number of nominal Christians, or believers in general folk religion, are quite confident that they are bound for eternal glory."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Bill the CatNo. It is referring to aligning one's self with those who crucified Him
Originally posted by KingsGambitBut if the person is saved, how can they possibly be in a worse state than they were before they were saved?
Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit,
so a fool returneth to his folly.
Also, have you not ever personally observed someone who was foolish, and seemed to become even more foolish over time? In my experience, unless a fool definitively tries to abandon his foolishness by fearing God, it is virtually inevitable that this decline will occur. They always wind up in a worse state.Last edited by Obsidian; 03-26-2014, 04:57 PM.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostI don't really see where you get that interpretation from. Further, even assuming this interpretation were correct, it would not disprove what I said about the possibility of repentance. You're looking solely at the part that says it's impossible to repent. You are ignoring the condition behind that assessment.
A gnostic will generally be more immoral than an unsaved Jew. The false teachers described in this chapter seem to be teaching people that it is good to sin. So the hearers wind up with less liberty than when they started. That is all it is saying.
Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit,
so a fool returneth to his folly.
Also, have you not ever personally observed someone who was foolish, and seemed to become even more foolish over time? In my experience, unless a fool definitively tries to abandon his foolishness by fearing God, it is virtually inevitable that this decline will occur. They always wind up in a worse state."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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The chapter in general is about the judgment of the prophets, while also touching upon the doctrines of the prophets. In verses 10-16, it talks fairly extensively about about the doctrines of the prophets and to a lesser extent also mentions their judgment. Then in either verse 17 or 18 (depending on interpretation), it focuses even more heavily on the doctrines of the prophets. It explains that their doctrines enslave people. The verse you are referring to, verse 20, occurs within this section. In my view, it is referring to the enslavement of the people who listen to the prophets.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostAt the judgment, the lost perish, and the saved who "have" eternal life go on into the new heaven and earth. I dare say those who perish never knew they had eternal life. It is my take, to know one has eternal life means one will not lose that life. The only ones who "loose eternal life" are the ones who never obtained it. And they didn't really know.
Why do you think people will be protesting? Clearly it is because they disagree with it - IOW, they thought they would be judged otherwise, and have eternal life.
Most nominal Christians, do not know, and would say so.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostIf taken in isolation, I agree that this passage could refer to such a state, but how do we not apply it to eternal judgment given that the entire chapter before this point warns of eternal punishment in fairly explicit terms?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostMore than one passage is being brought up in this thread. Could you please more explicitly identify what you're talking about? I've lost track."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostI don't really see where you get that interpretation from.
Further, even assuming this interpretation were correct, it would not disprove what I said about the possibility of repentance.
You're looking solely at the part that says it's impossible to repent. You are ignoring the condition behind that assessment.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI'm responding to Obsidian's claim that 2 Peter 2:20-22 does not refer to one being in a worse state because of their eternal state (the obvious interpretation), but rather to them being in a state where, while they are still saved because they professed faith at one point, they are "worse off" than before their salvation because they are more mired in sin.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThank you."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAnd who gets their name blotted out of the book, and who has it written in there? And those who HAD it written in there, but were LATER blotted out?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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