Originally posted by Unitarian101
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This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.
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John 20:28, My Lord and My God
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIt's both (except in this case it's a title for the Son). The title or designation of God is only properly attributed to someone who actually is divine, so calling someone God is the same thing as claiming that they have a divine nature.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostThe Word was clearly a personal being before becoming human though, and did not become another person after becoming human, so it is still proper to call Jesus the Word. The Trinitarian interpretation has absolutely no problems with this verse.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostGrammar has absolutely nothing to do with it.
So you can read the clause in one of three possible ways :
(1) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is indefinite
(2) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is definite
(3) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is purely qualitative
or is it "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" ?
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Originally posted by Unitarian101 View PostSure it does..When you say that θεός in John 1:1c is "a name, or a title," you are saying θεός here is definite, but when you say θεός in John 1:1c is "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" you are saying it is either indefinite or else purely qualitative . But a noun in a specific sentence or a clause cannot be both or all three at the same time.
So you can read the clause in one of three possible ways :
(1) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is indefinite
(2) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is definite
(3) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is purely qualitative
or is it "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" ?
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostNo, it does not. I'm not saying the noun means "both or all three at the same time",
I'm saying that having the name, or title of God implies divine nature. That's why grammar is irrelevant.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostNot if they already were a person before becoming a human.
Furthermore, how can someone be "human" yet not be a human person ? Worse still, how can someone be "human" yet be an un-created, Eternal person ? This goes against the very biblical definition of what it means to be human. Humans are creatures, they are not eternal persons, but each human person came into existence at a point in time. The very first human person came into existence very late in the Creation scheme infact (on the 6th day).
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Originally posted by Unitarian101 View PostDon't know where you are getting this from ?
Furthermore, how can someone be "human" yet not be a human person ? Worse still, how can someone be "human" yet be an un-created, Eternal person ? This goes against the very biblical definition of what it means to be human. Humans are creatures, they are not eternal persons, but each human person came into existence at a point in time. The very first human person came into existence very late in the Creation scheme infact (on the 6th day).
Now if you hear and undertand that the Word is the same God as God whom He is with. Another Person if you will. Same God but a different Person.
And this Person,, the Word changed how He was "with God" in becoming flesh, becoming human, John 1:14.
That you believe this or not, that is your issue. But I just gave you an explanation.
Furthermore in becoming a man He did not cease being God, He only change how He being the Word was "with God." John 1:9-10.Last edited by 37818; 04-04-2020, 09:49 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostJohn 1:1-2 speaks of the Word being both "with God" and "was God." And this entity, the Word, is the sole cause, as God, of all things caused, John 1:3.
Now if you hear and undertand that the Word is the same God as God whom He is with. Another Person if you will. Same God but a different Person.
And this Person,, the Word changed how He was "with God" in becoming flesh, becoming human, John 1:14.
That you believe this or not, that is your issue. But I just gave you an explanation.
Furthermore in becoming a man He did not cease being God, He only change how He being the Word was "with God." John 1:9-10.
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Originally posted by Unitarian101 View PostTry "was a divine thing" for θεὸς ἦν
Being the sole Creator:
παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Being the true light and having made the world. John 1:9-10.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostJohn 1:1-2 speaks of the Word being both "with God" and "was God." And this entity, the Word, is the sole cause, as God, of all things caused, John 1:3.
Now if you hear and undertand that the Word is the same God as God whom He is with. Another Person if you will. Same God but a different Person.
And this Person,, the Word changed how He was "with God" in becoming flesh, becoming human, John 1:14.
That you believe this or not, that is your issue. But I just gave you an explanation.
Furthermore in becoming a man He did not cease being God, He only change how He being the Word was "with God." John 1:9-10.
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