Hebrews 10:26 challenge

[Kbertsche]

Heb. 10:26: Ἑκουσίως γὰρ ἁμαρτανόντων ἡμῶν μετὰ τὸ λαβεῖν τὴν ἐπίγνωσιν τῆς ἀληθείας, οὐκέτι περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπολείπεται θυσία, 27 φοβερὰ δέ τις ἐκδοχὴ κρίσεως καὶ πυρὸς ζῆλος ἐσθίειν μέλλοντος τοὺς ὑπεναντίους.

NRSV: Heb. 10:26 For if we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

On pages 632-633 of Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, Daniel B. Wallace lists the adverb ἑκουσίως as a term used in Hebrews 10 in conjunction with the verbal participle ἁμαρτανόντων as a "clear illustration" of a "condition [if]".

The context of the latter portion of Hebrews 10 indicates that the author identifies himself with the Hebrews to whom his teaching is addressed and believes that he and they

"... are not among those who shrink back and so are lost, but among those who have faith and so are saved." (Heb. 10:39)

The word ἁμαρτανόντων is a present active participle. While it is not in the subjunctive mood, it can still have a conditional sense. Below is an edited excerpt from Wheeler's Greek Grammar Notes. He classifies this as a circumstantial/adverbial use of the participle to indicate condition:

Source: Wheeler

PARTICIPLE:
Definition: Declinable Verbal Adjective
Types:
I. Adjectival
II. Substantival
III. Circumstantial (Adverbial): Participle provides background information related to the Action/State of the Main Verb, which is being done by the Subject of the Main Verb; always anarthrous:
A. Time (Temporal):
B. Manner:
C. Means (Instrumental):
D. Cause:

F. Concession:
G. Purpose (Telic):
H. Result:
I. Attendant Circumstance:
IV. Absolute
V. Imperatival
VI. Independent
VII. Indirect Discourse:
VIII. Periphrasis:
IX. Complementary:
X. Redundant:

© Copyright Original Source

[37818]

Heb. 10:26: Ἑκουσίως γὰρ ἁμαρτανόντων ἡμῶν μετὰ τὸ λαβεῖν τὴν ἐπίγνωσιν τῆς ἀληθείας, οὐκέτι περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπολείπεται θυσία, 27 φοβερὰ δέ τις ἐκδοχὴ κρίσεως καὶ πυρὸς ζῆλος ἐσθίειν μέλλοντος τοὺς ὑπεναντίους.

NRSV: Heb. 10:26 For if we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

On pages 632-633 of Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, Daniel B. Wallace lists the adverb ἑκουσίως as a term used in Hebrews 10 in conjunction with the verbal participle ἁμαρτανόντων as a "clear illustration" of a "condition [if]".

The context of the latter portion of Hebrews 10 indicates that the author identifies himself with the Hebrews to whom his teaching is addressed and believes that he and they

"... are not among those who shrink back and so are lost, but among those who have faith and so are saved." (Heb. 10:39)

How is it "a 'clear illustration''" that argument being unique to all the New Testament Greek texts? Can it be proved that it does not constitute some kind of special pleading?

[Kbertsche]

How is it "a 'clear illustration''" that argument being unique to all the New Testament Greek texts? Can it be proved that it does not constitute some kind of special pleading?

Why do you claim that the argument is "unique to all the New Testament Greek texts"? What do you mean by this? Are you trying to say that this is a unique occurrence?

Did you look at the six other passages that I posted from Wheeler where a participle is used with a conditional sense? (Luke 9:25; Gal 6:9; Phil 1:27; 1Tim 4:4; Heb 2:3; 7:12; 10:26.)

[John Reece]

How is it "a 'clear illustration''" that argument being unique to all the New Testament Greek texts? Can it be proved that it does not constitute some kind of special pleading?

Yes, it can be proved that it does not constitute some kind of special pleading.

Far from being "unique to all the New Testament Greek texts", Wallace (op. cit.) provides the following examples of "clear illustrations" of "condition [if]" in the syntax of NT Greek texts that include Hebrews 10:26:

Clear Illustrations

Matt 21:22
καὶ πάντα ὅσα ἂν αἰτήσητε ἐν τῇ προσευχῇ πιστεύοντες λήμψεσθε.
Whatever you ask for in prayer, if you believe, you will receive it.

Luke 9:25
τί γὰρ ὠφελεῖται ἄνθρωπος κερδήσας τὸν κόσμον ὅλον ἑαυτὸν δὲ ἀπολέσας;
Fo how does it benefit a person if he should gain the whole world but if he loses himself?

Gal 6:9
θερίσομεν μὴ ἐκλυόμενοι.
we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

1 Tim 4:4
οὐδὲν ἀπόβλητον μετὰ εὐχαριστίας λαμβανόμενον
nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanks

Cf. also Luke 15:4 (cf Matt 18:12); Acts 15:29 (or means); 18:21 (genitive absolute); Rom. 2:27; 7:3; 1 Cor 6:1; 8:10; 11:29;
Col 2:20; 1 Tim 4:6 (or means); 6:8; Heb 2:3; 7:12; 10:26; 11:32; 1 Peter 3:6; 2 Pet 1:10 (or means).

[37818]

Hebrews 10:26-27 is not merely as simple: A therefore B logic.

A therefore B logic can be translated "if" A therefore B without changing the meaning of A.

Hebrews 10:26-27 is A after B, C but D.

A - we willfully sin
B - receiving knowledge of the truth
C - there remains no more sacrifice for sins
C is repeating what is being taught in v.10, 12, 14 and 17-18.
D is given in contrast citing Isaiah 26:11 (see New American Standard Bible)

Adding "if" to A does change the meaning of A here.

[John Reece]

Hebrews 10:26-27 is not merely as simple: A therefore B logic.

A therefore B logic can be translated "if" A therefore B without changing the meaning of A.

Hebrews 10:26-27 is A after B, C but D.

A - we willfully sin
B - receiving knowledge of the truth
C - there remains no more sacrifice for sins
C is repeating what is being taught in v.10, 12, 14 and 17-18.
D is given in contrast citing Isaiah 26:11 (see New American Standard Bible)

Adding "if" to A does change the meaning of A here.

Sounds like "some kind of special pleading" to me.

[37818]

Sounds like "some kind of special pleading" to me.

How is not adding "if" where there is no "if" a special pleading? Where is A therefore B logic in vs.26-27?

Why not add "if" to v.18? ". . . Now [If] where remission of these is, [there is] no more offering for sin."
."

Chirst's redemption is a once for all. Those who reject it, reject the only forgiveness offered. The "we" are not the ones who are rejecting it.

[John Reece]

How is not adding "if" where there is no "if" a special pleading?

"Special pleading" is your term, which I do not normally use or even understand; I used it in this case as a term to indicate that what you said before makes no more sense to me now than what you said before using that term ― hence the bracketing of my post with .

Where is A therefore B logic in vs.26-27?

What does "A therefore B logic" have to do with the syntax of the Greek NT text?

Why not add "if" to v.18? ". . . Now [If] where remission of these is, [there is] no more offering for sin." ."

There is no "adding" of "if" anywhere in the biblical text; however, the term "if" is used in English translations to express a conditional nuance of the usage of an adverbial Greek participle ― of which there is no occurrence in verse 18.

[John Reece]

The perfectionist in me wishes to reword the last line in the last post above thus:

There is no "adding" of "if" anywhere in the biblical text; however, the term "if" is used in English translations to express a conditional nuance of an adverbial Greek participle ― of which there is no occurrence in verse 18.

[John Reece]

....

Hebrews 10:26 is A after B

A - we willfully sin
B - receiving knowledge of the truth

....

If you begin with an inaccurate representation of the meaning of the Greek text, you will not reach a valid conclusion.

The text does not exactly say "we willfully sin" nor "receiving knowledge of the truth".

You apparently have a concept in your mind that you are determined to force the Bible to say, even if you must distort the biblical text in your effort to do so.

[37818]

If you begin with an inaccurate representation of the meaning of the Greek text, you will not reach a valid conclusion.

The text does not exactly say "we willfully sin" nor "receiving knowledge of the truth".

You apparently have a concept in your mind that you are determined to force the Bible to say, even if you must distort the biblical text in your effort to do so.

εκουσιως γαρ αμαρτανοντων ημων μετα το λαβειν την επιγνωσιν της αληθειας ουκετι περι αμαρτιων απολειπεται θυσια φοβερα δε τις εκδοχη κρισεως και πυρος ζηλος εσθιειν μελλοντος τους υπεναντιους

εκουσιως [adverb] willfully
γαρ [conjunction] for
αμαρτανοντων [verb, present tense, active voice, participle, genitive case, plural] of doing sins
ημων [pronoun, genitive case, first person, plural ] we

μετα [preposition] after

το [definite article, accusative, singular]
λαβειν [verb, second aorist, active voice, infinitive] having received
την [definite article, accusative, singular] the
επιγνωσιν [noun, accusative, singular] knowledge
της [definite article, genitive case, singular] of the
αληθειας [noun, genitive case, singular] truth

ουκετ [adverb] no longer
περι [preposition] for
αμαρτιων [noun, genitive case, plural] of sins
απολειπεται [verb, present tense, passive voice, third person, singular] there remain
θυσια [noun, nominative case/subject, singular] a sacrifice

φοβερα [adjective, nominative case/subject, singular] fearful
δε [conjunction] but
τις [indefinite pronoun, nominative case/subject, singular] a certain
εκδοχη [noun, nominative case/subject, singular] looking for
κρισεως [noun, genitive case, singular] of judgment

και [conjunction] and

πυρος [noun, genitive case, singular] of burning
ζηλος [noun, nominative case/subject, singular] indignation

εσθιειν [verb, present tense, active voice, infinitive] devour
μελλοντος [verb, present tense, active voice, participle, genitive case, singular] of which shall

τους [definite article, accusative, plural] the
υπεναντιους [adjective, accusative, plural] adversaries

Now how does the above require "if." Please explain. And please make/add any needed corrections to or to any omissions necessary to that explanation.
Please, not merely for my benefit. Thank you.

[John Reece]

εκουσιως γαρ αμαρτανοντων ημων μετα το λαβειν την επιγνωσιν της αληθειας ουκετι περι αμαρτιων απολειπεται θυσια φοβερα δε τις εκδοχη κρισεως και πυρος ζηλος εσθιειν μελλοντος τους υπεναντιους

εκουσιως [adverb] willfully
γαρ [conjunction] for
αμαρτανοντων [verb, present tense, active voice, participle, genitive case, plural] of doing sins
ημων [pronoun, genitive case, first person, plural ] we

μετα [preposition] after

το [definite article, accusative, singular]
λαβειν [verb, second aorist, active voice, infinitive] having received
την [definite article, accusative, singular] the
επιγνωσιν [noun, accusative, singular] knowledge
της [definite article, genitive case, singular] of the
αληθειας [noun, genitive case, singular] truth

ουκετ [adverb] no longer
περι [preposition] for
αμαρτιων [noun, genitive case, plural] of sins
απολειπεται [verb, present tense, passive voice, third person, singular] there remain
θυσια [noun, nominative case/subject, singular] a sacrifice

φοβερα [adjective, nominative case/subject, singular] fearful
δε [conjunction] but
τις [indefinite pronoun, nominative case/subject, singular] a certain
εκδοχη [noun, nominative case/subject, singular] looking for
κρισεως [noun, genitive case, singular] of judgment

και [conjunction] and

πυρος [noun, genitive case, singular] of burning
ζηλος [noun, nominative case/subject, singular] indignation

εσθιειν [verb, present tense, active voice, infinitive] devour
μελλοντος [verb, present tense, active voice, participle, genitive case, singular] of which shall

τους [definite article, accusative, plural] the
υπεναντιους [adjective, accusative, plural] adversaries

Now how does the above require "if." Please explain. And please make/add any needed corrections to or to any omissions necessary to that explanation.
Please, not merely for my benefit. Thank you.

Not merely for your benefit: You have listed above in vertical order the Greek words of the biblical text of Hebrews 10:26-27, with, added in brackets, grammatical descriptors of each word ― all of which is superfluous, for the purpose of answering your question, except for the initial clause, which I will present below.

Ἑκουσίως γὰρ ἁμαρτανόντων ἡμῶν

NIV: If we deliberately keep on sinning
ESV: For if we go on sinning deliberately
NET: For if we deliberately keep on sinning
NRSV: For if we willfully persist in sin
TEV takes into consideration the whole verse rather than follow the literal order that you and the versions quoted above follow: "For there is no longer any sacrifice that will take away sins if we purposely go on sinning after the truth has been made known to us."

I and Kbertsche have presented in posts above the case for reading if in the English texts. See post # 43, post # 46, Kbertsche, and post # 49.

[John Reece]

Hebrews 10:26 challenge

37818,

I apologize for so rudely interrupting your argument.

I am curious to see where you were going with it.

I will try to restrain my impulsivity if you are wiling to give it another go.

[37818]

Looking at the grammar for ημων it might be better translated . . . of us . . . . It is less inclusive than . . . we . . . . So adding "if" to . . . if of us . . . need not change the meaning of . . . of us. John what do you think?

[John Reece]

Looking at the grammar for ημων it might be better translated . . . of us . . . . It is less inclusive than . . . we . . . . So adding "if" to . . . if of us . . . need not change the meaning of . . . of us. John what do you think?

Thanks for your response.

I wonder why you think ημων ... might be "better translated" . . . of us ...

And why you think that is "less inclusive" than ... we ...

And why you think that "if" is added, rather than merely being part the inherent sense of the syntax of the text.

I wonder: What is motivating you to rack your brain to come up with a reading that differs from practically every English version and scholar?