A great grandmother has been praying to Elrond thinking he was Saint Anthony

[Sparko]

So why pray at all, if God knows your need before you even ask?

Because prayer is for US, not for God. It helps us to align our wills to God's, and sometimes God wants us to ask him for something before giving it to us. That way we feel connected.

I think the whole praying to saints thing is a corruption. The roman and greek Christians wanted to find a way to incorporate their polytheistic ideas into Christianity, so they basically set up a mirror image of the Roman/Greek style Gods, with a head God and little gods that each had a different "job" - so you have a saint for various "jobs" - same thing.

[Cow Poke]

So why pray at all, if God knows your need before you even ask?

Cause he wants us to?

[Cow Poke]

Icons are often blessed in the EO (although it is sometimes argued that this is not necessary), and they are considered holy, but we still do not pray to the icon - only before it. We are, in fact, encouraged NOT to direct our prayers to the image, but to the prototype.

The Mormons would have a fit, eh? I remember the first time I found out Mormons don't wear crosses (or "cruciforms", as NRAJeff instructed me), I guess for fear that people would worship the cross.

[Adrift]

Icons are often blessed in the EO (although it is sometimes argued that this is not necessary), and they are considered holy, but we still do not pray to the icon - only before it. We are, in fact, encouraged NOT to direct our prayers to the image, but to the prototype.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. In what sense are sanctified icons holy exactly? Like, what is the official doctrine on that subject?

[Cow Poke]

Ok, thanks for the clarification. In what sense are sanctified icons holy exactly? Like, what is the official doctrine on that subject?

I'm wondering if it's like the special recipe for incense to be used in the Temple -- it was a special mixture to be used ONLY in the Temple, because it was "holy" unto God -- simply meaning "set apart", for no other purpose than worship.

[Adrift]

The Mormons would have a fit, eh? I remember the first time I found out Mormons don't wear crosses (or "cruciforms", as NRAJeff instructed me), I guess for fear that people would worship the cross.

The Way did that as well. There was a saying in The Way that went something like, "if Jesus was shot, would we wear rifles around our necks? If he were electrocuted, would we be wearing small electric chairs?"

The Way's way of looking at that subject is that it isn't Jesus' death, but his Resurrection that is key. After all, had he died, and stayed dead, we'd all remain dead in our sins. The Way was messed up, but occasionally they had moments of "hmm, yeah, I see what you mean". That teaching was/is something hard for me to shake. I still won't wear a cross. I don't wear much jewelry at any more, but if I were to wear a Christian emblem it would be the dove or maybe the Chi-Rho.

[Cow Poke]

The Way did that as well. There was a saying in The Way that went something like, "if Jesus was shot, would we wear rifles around our necks? If he were electrocuted, would we be wearing small electric chairs?"

The Way's way of looking at that subject is that it isn't Jesus' death, but his Resurrection that is key. After all, had he died, and stayed dead, we'd all remain dead in our sins. The Way was messed up, but occasionally they had moments of "hmm, yeah, I see what you mean". That teaching was/is something hard for me to shake. I still won't wear a cross. I don't wear much jewelry at any more, but if I were to wear a Christian emblem it would be the dove or maybe the Chi-Rho.

Interesting.

I also don't wear a cross, but, I guess it's because the only jewelry I wear is my wedding ring and a $9.00 Walmart watch.

There have been times I've carried the "cross in my pocket" to remind me to pray, and to act like a Christian, but I never thought of it as any more than a reminder.

I've actually wanted to start a thread about your spiritual journey.... maybe some day?

[Sparko]

The Way did that as well. There was a saying in The Way that went something like, "if Jesus was shot, would we wear rifles around our necks? If he were electrocuted, would we be wearing small electric chairs?"

The Way's way of looking at that subject is that it isn't Jesus' death, but his Resurrection that is key. After all, had he died, and stayed dead, we'd all remain dead in our sins. The Way was messed up, but occasionally they had moments of "hmm, yeah, I see what you mean". That teaching was/is something hard for me to shake. I still won't wear a cross. I don't wear much jewelry at any more, but if I were to wear a Christian emblem it would be the dove or maybe the Chi-Rho.

The Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing. Well if we shot Jesus and he got back up, yeah I probably would wear a bullet around my neck as a symbol of him defeating death and saving us!

[Adrift]

Interesting.

I also don't wear a cross, but, I guess it's because the only jewelry I wear is my wedding ring and a $9.00 Walmart watch.

There have been times I've carried the "cross in my pocket" to remind me to pray, and to act like a Christian, but I never thought of it as any more than a reminder.

I've actually wanted to start a thread about your spiritual journey.... maybe some day?

Yeah, that'd be nice. I think I've shared that journey before, but I wouldn't mind doing it again.

The Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing. Well if we shot Jesus and he got back up, yeah I probably would wear a bullet around my neck as a symbol of him defeating death and saving us!

Yeah, most of The Way's doctrine came from Jehovah's Witnesses, including their non-Trinitarian Adoptionist views (though they never went so far as to assert that Jesus was an angel).

But, yeah, I don't think I'll ever shake the view that the cross, like the electric chair, or a noose, or what-have-you is essentially a symbol of death (as Goth as I was/am, it's surprising I have personal issues with it at all ). But I don't really have an issue with other Christians wearing them. I realize that they're simply taking that symbol of death, and making something new out of it, or it's a vague reference to passages like Matthew 16:24-26.

[Sparko]

Yeah, that'd be nice. I think I've shared that journey before, but I wouldn't mind doing it again.



Yeah, most of The Way's doctrine came from Jehovah's Witnesses, including their non-Trinitarian Adoptionist views (though they never went so far as to assert that Jesus was an angel).

But, yeah, I don't think I'll ever shake the view that the cross, like the electric chair, or a noose, or what-have-you is essentially a symbol of death (as Goth as I was/am, it's surprising I have personal issues with it at all ). But I don't really have an issue with other Christians wearing them. I realize that they're simply taking that symbol of death, and making something new out of it, or it's a vague reference to passages like Matthew 16:24-26.

I don't wear a cross because I just don't like to wear jewelry. The only thing I wear is a watch. I have a cool little cross made up of nails at home on a leather necklace but I never wear it. I can't even stand to wear ties or anything around my neck.

[One Bad Pig]

Because prayer is for US, not for God. It helps us to align our wills to God's, and sometimes God wants us to ask him for something before giving it to us. That way we feel connected.

As CP likes to say, EggZACTly. We pray to feel connected. We ask others to pray for us to feel connected.

I think the whole praying to saints thing is a corruption. The roman and greek Christians wanted to find a way to incorporate their polytheistic ideas into Christianity, so they basically set up a mirror image of the Roman/Greek style Gods, with a head God and little gods that each had a different "job" - so you have a saint for various "jobs" - same thing.

I think you are projecting (late) Catholic ideas here somewhat. There are saints known for especially helping with various difficulties, but that's a far cry from each saint having a different "job." You're also grossly distorting pagan theology, AFAICT. There was a concept of a sole deity above all the gods, but he was remote and completely unapproachable by mortals (not sure he was considered approachable by the gods, either). There was never a parallel concept in Christianity.

[One Bad Pig]

Ok, thanks for the clarification. In what sense are sanctified icons holy exactly? Like, what is the official doctrine on that subject?

Well, there is no official doctrine on that. The only official doctrine on icons is to be found in a letter of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, which touches on why icons are proper and that they should be venerated.

I would say that icons are considered "windows to heaven" - that is, as we look at them we see their prototype; as we pray before them, it is as if we pray before their prototype. I would also say that Cow Poke is not far off in saying that they are "set apart." When an icon is too badly damaged, it is collected with other damaged items that have been sanctified (lectionaries, vestments) and burned to provide the heat for making chrism, which is done by patriarchs during Holy Week as there is need.

[Adrift]

Well, there is no official doctrine on that. The only official doctrine on icons is to be found in a letter of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, which touches on why icons are proper and that they should be venerated.

I would say that icons are considered "windows to heaven" - that is, as we look at them we see their prototype; as we pray before them, it is as if we pray before their prototype. I would also say that Cow Poke is not far off in saying that they are "set apart." When an icon is too badly damaged, it is collected with other damaged items that have been sanctified (lectionaries, vestments) and burned to provide the heat for making chrism, which is done by patriarchs during Holy Week as there is need.

Ok, thanks. Would an icon be considered holy even if it left the sanctuary? Like, if someone stole an icon, or a relic, would it retain it's holiness in the hands or home of the thief, or to an art collector, or what-have-you? It seems to me that in CP's example, the incense is holy as it pertains to it's use in the temple, but outside of the temple it doesn't have any property of "holiness", and only then because the pre-New Covenant people required tangible items like temples, arks, incense, and the like to conceptualize God's spirit dwelling among them, but under the New Covenant, where we all have His spirit dwelling within us as the temple of God, this is no longer necessary, or even beneficial.

[Raphael]

The Way did that as well. There was a saying in The Way that went something like, "if Jesus was shot, would we wear rifles around our necks? If he were electrocuted, would we be wearing small electric chairs?"

The Way's way of looking at that subject is that it isn't Jesus' death, but his Resurrection that is key. After all, had he died, and stayed dead, we'd all remain dead in our sins. The Way was messed up, but occasionally they had moments of "hmm, yeah, I see what you mean". That teaching was/is something hard for me to shake. I still won't wear a cross. I don't wear much jewelry at any more, but if I were to wear a Christian emblem it would be the dove or maybe the Chi-Rho.

I always had a chuckle in Nicky Gumble's Alpha Course, when trying to explain the cross to people would wear a small model of a gallows.

[Cow Poke]

....It seems to me that in CP's example, the incense is holy as it pertains to it's use in the temple, but outside of the temple it doesn't have any property of "holiness"...

This is actually 'specialer' than that. It was not ALLOWED to be used outside the Temple at all, at the penalty of being 'cut off' from the congregation.



It's a pretty interesting study.