Abortion derail from the Active Shooter thread

[Jedidiah]

And once again you've neglected the severing of the umbilical cord, and the switch to using lungs and mouth.

Not relevant to what I wrote. A change in the way oxygen and nutrients are handled does not change anything. If I am on an IV for fluids I remain human.

What you wrote was untrue, your revised attempt is equally untrue, and your pretence of having said something else is all too typical.

Can you point out what I wrote in that post that was not true?

I would have a lot more sympathy for pro-lifers if they argued their case with something other than fallacies and falsehoods.

Your sympathy is of no significance.

[jordanriver]

Medical dictionaries and encyclopedias used to include "child" and "infant" in their definitions of the embryo and fetus, except for Dorland's.
I remember , before we lost a Medical Center account, going there to "check" my crew's progress cleaning the place, but really to go around to the doctors' office and read their books for my aborion debating hobby.

I found definitions in Tabers, Stedmans, Mosby's and AMA -American Medial Association encyclopedia.

But newer editions for some reason starting leaving out "child" and "infant" in their definitions of preborn humans.

[Bill the Cat]

In this world, based on the example that I cited and which you deliberately deleted from your reply.

"Google baby" was your example. And you should be ashamed of your effort.

Source: http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/in-depth/pregnancy/art-20047208?pg=2

Your first visit will focus mainly on assessing your overall health, identifying any risk factors and determining your baby's gestational age. Your health care provider will ask detailed questions about your health history. Be honest. The answers you provide will help you and your baby receive the best care. If you're uncomfortable discussing your health history in front of your partner, schedule a private consultation.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: http://www.parents.com/pregnancy/stages/fetal-development/fetal-growth-weeks-5-8/

Week 6

Hard to believe: though he's no bigger than a lentil, your baby already has a beating heart! By the middle of this week, his cardiac muscles have formed and begun fluttery little flexing movements. This mini -version of the human heart is your baby's first working organ.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: http://www.babycenter.com/0_the-ultimate-pregnancy-to-do-list-first-trimester_10341205.bc?page=3

Follow your baby's development
Sign up for BabyCenter's free email newsletters and each week you'll learn exactly what's going on with both your pregnancy and your baby.

© Copyright Original Source

And that's just a small sampling of resources for pregnant women that uses the term "baby". Now, to accept your challenge, I googled "having a baby", and the following results were included in the top 50 results:

BIRTH-620_1563535a.jpg

we-are-having-baby-announcement-26.jpg

having_a_baby_in_hong_kong.jpg

29kuphc.jpg

Just because foeti

Source: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fetus

The spelling foetus is sometimes attempted as a learned Latinism, but it is not historic.

© Copyright Original Source

So, please stop misspelling the term (which is why I put your misspelling in quotes)

are often referred to as babies does not imply that "baby" means foetus.

No one implied that baby meant fetus exclusively. Just like fruit does not mean orange exclusively.

[Bill the Cat]

Also... stomach?

It's a colloquialism people use to describe their general abdominal area. Quit being pedantic.

[Christianbookworm]

And once again you've neglected the severing of the umbilical cord, and the switch to using lungs and mouth.

What you wrote was untrue, your revised attempt is equally untrue, and your pretence of having said something else is all too typical.

I would have a lot more sympathy for pro-lifers if they argued their case with something other than fallacies and falsehoods.

If you took the fetus out via an EXIT procedure and immediately put "it" on ECMO, can you still kill it? The fetus is born but still is not breathing with the lungs.

[Bill the Cat]

No.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fetus
In Latin, fetus sometimes was transferred figuratively to the newborn creature itself, or used in a sense of "offspring, brood" (as in Horace's "Germania quos horrida parturit Fetus"), but this was not the basic meaning. It also was used of plants, in the sense of "fruit, produce, shoot," and figuratively as "growth, production."

[Bill the Cat]

I think we are in basic agreement but not in synch. I'm not claiming that fetuses are different species.

I'm saying that the word "baby" almost always refers to human offspring post-birth - as evident from Google images - and that while a foetus may be referred to as a baby, that isn't the most common meaning of the word, and using "babies" to refer to foetuses is misleading.

If I wrote that "I smashed a baby with an axe", you wouldn't think I was referring to a small piano, would you? Same problem.

But it could refer to a small piano, if that person were so inclined. The term "baby" is a very broad term that encompasses several different things. My niece is pregnant with her first baby. My other niece took her baby to see Santa today. My baby just went back to college. My brother's car is his baby. My best friend's brother calls his dog his baby. Trying to dismiss all others in favor of the most popular usage is wrong.

[Zymologist]

I'm not saying anything of the sort.

But I was wondering how long it would take before some-one assumed that atheist->abortion advocate.

I doubt you'll be the only one.

I wasn't assuming anything. I was asking a question.

Btw, what's your position on abortion, if you don't mind my asking?

[Roy]

Not relevant to what I wrote. A change in the way oxygen and nutrients are handled does not change anything. If I am on an IV for fluids I remain human.

A change doesn't change anything?

Can you point out what I wrote in that post that was not true?

This: "simply traveling through the birth canal does not change anything except in a debated legal definition".

Your sympathy is of no significance.

Then neither are your posts. Plonk. Rats - can't.

[Roy]

"Google baby" was your example. And you should be ashamed of your effort.

Google images for "baby" was my example, and you should be ashamed of your memory.

[Roy]

I wasn't assuming anything. I was asking a question.

Really?

This was your question: "Are you saying that the above differences are significant enough to merit killing the fetus?"

You wouldn't ask an anti-abortionist how they justified killing fetuses, would you? So you must have assumed I was in favour of abortion. It's implicit in your question.

Btw, what's your position on abortion, if you don't mind my asking?

Non-trivial and not entirely settled. Not that it matters since just about everyone here seems to know my yet unstated position better than I do.

[Roy]

If you took the fetus out via an EXIT procedure and immediately put "it" on ECMO, can you still kill it?

And that's #2.

[Roy]

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fetus
In Latin, fetus sometimes was transferred figuratively to the newborn creature itself, or used in a sense of "offspring, brood" (as in Horace's "Germania quos horrida parturit Fetus"), but this was not the basic meaning. It also was used of plants, in the sense of "fruit, produce, shoot," and figuratively as "growth, production."

You left out the actual Latin meaning of fetus: late 14c., "the young while in the womb or egg" (tending to mean vaguely the embryo in the later stage of development), from Latin fetus (often, incorrectly, foetus) "the bearing or hatching of young, a bringing forth," from Latin base *fe- "to generate, bear," also "to suck, suckle" (see fecund).

But either way, fetus does not mean an unborn child in Latin.

[Bill the Cat]

Google images for "baby" was my example, and you should be ashamed of your memory.

And as I said, that may be the most common usage (to describe the stage otherwise known as "infant"), but it still does not in any way invalidate its common usage as describing a fetus, a toddler, a grown woman, or a powder blue mustang.

[Christianbookworm]

And that's #2.