Conservative misinformation on the efficacy of condoms

[Sam]

Abstinence is 100% effective in preventing herpes, HPV, HSV, and pregnancy. Monogamy is 100% effective in preventing herpes, HPV and HSV. I am unashamedly unconcerned with enabling consequence-free extramarital sex.

The question is whether you support the propagation of false information in an effort to make arguments for abstinence and monogamy more persuasive than the facts allow.

I'm not a fan of Jichard's strident approach but I've found it alarming here and in the past that Teal has stated things which are not true regarding prophylactics and contraceptives. If you are going to appeal to her years of professional experience, you have to be able to explain why that experience should be given deference when she's made such an obviously false claim regarding condoms and HPV.

This is a relatively prevalent problem throughout the Evangelical Church's approach to premarital sex, STI/STD education, and pregnancy-related matters, I've found. While not ubiquitous, there are an awful lot of people who either absorb and ignorantly restate false information or, worse, participate in what's known as "lying for Jesus" about risks and preventative measures involved with sexual activity. We should be deeply concerned about such behavior and work to make sure that our facts are accurate, regardless of opinion.

[Starlight]

Teallaura worked as a nurse with STD patients.

Times when I've been in hospital and chatted to the nurses, I've been repeatedly shocked by how unshakably incorrect some of those nurses beliefs about the conditions I had were. Nurses don't actually have the knowledge or training that doctors have, and half the stuff they think they've picked up along the way just isn't correct.

Further, she has proven to be a reliable source of information in the past.

Abstinence is 100% effective in preventing herpes, HPV, HSV, and pregnancy.

Abstinence has a tendency to be pretty ineffective at being abstinence. Abstinence advocate Bristol Palin, for example, recently announced her second abstinence-based pregnancy.

I've got no problem with religious people abstaining from sex if they want to do so. Their choice. But religious people need to admit to themselves that some of these people are going to fail at being abstinent some of the time, and they therefore need to ensure those people are equipped with the necessary knowledge to use birth control correctly and limit the spread of STDs.

[lilpixieofterror]

Ssshhhhhh, don't spoil it LPoT.... I think it would be more hilarious if we suggest Jichard to adopt said footwear....

That would require him to stop trolling Christians on internet forms and get out of his mother's basement errr I mean 'fortress of solitude'.

[lilpixieofterror]

Stop trolling.

Trolling (jerkard definition): "HOW DARE YOU DISAGREE WITH ME!"

You seem to throw that term around rather liberally. I don't think it means what you think it means.

You apparently don't know the difference between having no sense of humor and not knowing what particular joke is about. For example, there are probably many African jokes you would not understand, since they are about things you don't know. Does that mean you have no sense of humor? No. It means you don't. That was my point to rogue; I don't know what his joke is about.

And what rock have you been living under? The wearing socks with sandals meme has been around for decades. Andus is from Central America and he got it, without it needing to be explained to him. Perhaps you should try getting out of your 'fortress of solitude' once in a while instead of trolling Christians on internet forums?

Now go troll somewhere else, pixie. Maybe you can go Amen another post that spread misinformation dangerous to peoples health, since you apparently place your own ideology above the health of other people.

Sorry jack ass, you can't answer my post and throw me out so I can't answer it, but go ahead and tell everybody what 'misinformation' I have been spreading around. I've been on birth control pills for years and years now and what do you think my husband and I do at nights? Sit around and talk before going to bed? Please, you have no clue what you're talking about beyond a few 'studies' that you quickly googled up a few minutes before posting while Teal worked in the industry for nearly two decades (and found serious problems with your claims, that you ignored). Who should I believe? A humorless troll, who tries to be a Google Scholar or somebody that worked in a field directly related to this topic? Decisions decisions...

[lilpixieofterror]

I understand that you find the welfare of other people to be tiresome, along with accurate information regarding the efficacy of things like condoms. That says a lot about you, doesn't it? Maybe you can go discuss something you find to be more important than correct dangerous misinformation, like making fun of Democrats?

Still pretending that your Google Scholarship is the same as actually working in the field?

[lilpixieofterror]

Times when I've been in hospital and chatted to the nurses, I've been repeatedly shocked by how unshakably incorrect some of those nurses beliefs about the conditions I had were. Nurses don't actually have the knowledge or training that doctors have, and half the stuff they think they've picked up along the way just isn't correct.

Hummm interesting, my mother in law is a trained nurse and knows quite a bit about medical information and I have found her medical opinion to be around as accurate as the doctors are. Of course, she has about three medical related degrees and years and years of experience in many different medical related fields. What nurses have you been hanging around with and what hospital did you go to so I know if I am ever in New Zealand and get hurt, I know where not to go.

[One Bad Pig]

The question is whether you support the propagation of false information in an effort to make arguments for abstinence and monogamy more persuasive than the facts allow.

I do not.

I'm not a fan of Jichard's strident approach but I've found it alarming here and in the past that Teal has stated things which are not true regarding prophylactics and contraceptives. If you are going to appeal to her years of professional experience, you have to be able to explain why that experience should be given deference when she's made such an obviously false claim regarding condoms and HPV.

I expect that, in her experience, the claims she makes are true; otherwise, she wouldn't be making them.

This is a relatively prevalent problem throughout the Evangelical Church's approach to premarital sex, STI/STD education, and pregnancy-related matters, I've found. While not ubiquitous, there are an awful lot of people who either absorb and ignorantly restate false information or, worse, participate in what's known as "lying for Jesus" about risks and preventative measures involved with sexual activity. We should be deeply concerned about such behavior and work to make sure that our facts are accurate, regardless of opinion.

I have yet to meet anyone who self-identifies as Christian and advocates "lying for Jesus." If you're going to accuse Teallaura of doing so, do it to her face rather than make insinuations implying such.

[One Bad Pig]

Times when I've been in hospital and chatted to the nurses, I've been repeatedly shocked by how unshakably incorrect some of those nurses beliefs about the conditions I had were. Nurses don't actually have the knowledge or training that doctors have, and half the stuff they think they've picked up along the way just isn't correct.

How is that relevant to the experience of someone who's had to tell people for 18 years that they have an STD and figure out with them how they got it? Just guessing here, but perhaps it is her experience that many people who got HPV did so despite a condom being used in the sex act?

Abstinence has a tendency to be pretty ineffective at being abstinence. Abstinence advocate Bristol Palin, for example, recently announced her second abstinence-based pregnancy.

I've got no problem with religious people abstaining from sex if they want to do so. Their choice. But religious people need to admit to themselves that some of these people are going to fail at being abstinent some of the time, and they therefore need to ensure those people are equipped with the necessary knowledge to use birth control correctly and limit the spread of STDs.

That's what monogamy is for. I notice you sort of forgot to respond to that part of my post.

[Starlight]

my mother in law is a trained nurse and knows quite a bit about medical information and I have found her medical opinion to be around as accurate as the doctors are. Of course, she has about three medical related degrees and years and years of experience in many different medical related fields.

Given she has multiple qualifications and a lot of experience in different fields, it's hardly surprising she's a reliable source of knowledge.

Nursing diplomas here are only 18 months of training. Unfortunately that leaves a lot of scope for over-opinionated and under-educated nurses to decide they know enough to give inaccurate and unsolicited advice to both patients and doctors. My sister is a doctor in a hospital, and her number one complaint is incompetent nurses who think they know best, especially older female nurses who feel their many years of experience at being an incompetent nurse magically makes them absolutely sure they know more about modern medicine than a younger woman doctor who's just finished 7 years of extensive medical training and the endless examinations associated with that. My own experiences as a patient give a similar story, with nurses trying to give advice that was completely wrong, and refusing to even understand how wrong they were about my condition when I tried to correct them.

[Sam]

I do not.

I expect that, in her experience, the claims she makes are true; otherwise, she wouldn't be making them.

I have yet to meet anyone who self-identifies as Christian and advocates "lying for Jesus." If you're going to accuse Teallaura of doing so, do it to her face rather than make insinuations implying such.

As I've repeatedly said, if I'm going to accuse someone of lying, I am not going to mince words about it. Teal and I have already had our conversation about this matter and it's clear that her claim was either hyperbolic (which seems to be her interpretation) or simply misinformed (most charitably speaking, based on studies that have since been superseded). I am wholly inclined to believe either of these options and I've made no insinuations about her honesty.

That said, I was clearly making a general point about what I've seen in the Evangelical community regarding facts relating to pregnancy, abortion and STI/STDs and there very clearly have been frequent cases of both sincere ignorance and flat-out dishonesty in support of the "greater good." It's one of the reasons that I no longer support CareNet.

The point remains that we should be extremely concerned about people making false statements that could directly or reasonably lead to others' harm. In Teal's case, she made the point that she wouldn't recommend condom use to deter HPV as she believes condoms are not a particularly useful prophylactic against HPV. This is a false statement, as shown by individual studies and meta-reviews, and indeed a dangerous position for someone who is or was in a position to speak on the matter with some professional authority. Let's not lose sight of the facts of the matter.

[lilpixieofterror]

Given she has multiple qualifications and a lot of experience in different fields, it's hardly surprising she's a reliable source of knowledge.

And do you work in the field? See not everybody in a hospital is equally trained and here in the states, there's several levels of hospital workers. Medical assistants (which are little more than nurse's aids) are not nearly as well trained as an RN would be. An LPN usually isn't as well trained as an RN is either. I know several of those she's worked with and many of them do have quite a few degrees, even master's degrees dealing with nursing and they are quite competent in dealing with medical issues.

Nursing diplomas here are only 18 months of training. Unfortunately that leaves a lot of scope for over-opinionated and under-educated nurses to decide they know enough to give inaccurate and unsolicited advice to both patients and doctors. My sister is a doctor in a hospital, and her number one complaint is incompetent nurses who think they know best, especially older female nurses who feel their many years of experience at being an incompetent nurse magically makes them absolutely sure they know more about modern medicine than a younger woman doctor who's just finished 7 years of extensive medical training and the endless examinations associated with that. My own experiences as a patient give a similar story, with nurses trying to give advice that was completely wrong, and refusing to even understand how wrong they were about my condition when I tried to correct them.

Which here in the states, that would not make them an RN. Do you know the difference between an RN and a LPN (for example)? And RN usually has at least a 4 year degree and is required to take a test before they become an RN while an LPN usually has the 18 months of training in a tech school (as I recall, they are also required to take a test too). I don't know how it works in New Zealand, but an RN is usually better trained and has better medical knowledge than an LPN would, so what sort of nurse are you talking about (because I do know the difference)? Sounds like to me, if your nurses are that incompetent, I do not want to be under the 'free' medical care that your country has.

[Starlight]

How is that relevant to the experience of someone who's had to tell people for 18 years that they have an STD and figure out with them how they got it? Just guessing here, but perhaps it is her experience that many people who got HPV did so despite a condom being used in the sex act?

Teal is generally wrong about most things, and clearly factually wrong on this.

On the topic of HPV, a vaccine exists, which I'd generally recommend that all young-people get.

That's what monogamy is for. I notice you sort of forgot to respond to that part of my post.

I'm monogamous, but that's my choice, and I recognize that not everyone shares my values or is going to make the same choices as me. If our society is serious about combatting STDs, we've got to make sure that the healthcare advice given to our young-people is comprehensive and accurate, so that when they make their own life choices they know how to minimize risk.

[Jichard]

Teallaura worked as a nurse with STD patients. That is directly relevant to this thread's topic.

No, it isn't, anymore than working with AIDS patients is relevant to whether HIV causes AIDS. For example: if some nurse worked with AIDS patients and that nurse claimed that HIV does not cause AIDS, then that nurse's experience is largely irrelevant to the question of whether HIV causes AIDS, since that nurse's experiences contradicts the overwhelming scientific evidence that HIV causes AIDS. Similarly, Teal's experience as a nurse means nothing in the face of the scientific evidence contradicting Teal's claims.

Further, she has proven to be a reliable source of information in the past.

Not really. In my experience, she's proven to be unreliable. Hence her false claims on herpes, HPV, and the efficacy of condoms.

You have an amusing faith in the rigor of the studies you googled up.

^^^ Classic denialism on science. Just goes to show you that when some social conservatives are presented with scientific evidence that's inconvenient for their pet ideology, they attack science. I'm sure you'll do the same whenever someone cites scientific evidence you can't address. Do you do the same thing when scientists cite scientific studies? Anyway, have fun pretending that science operates by the same "faith" that religion does.

But hey, since you think it's amusing to go with what scientific evidence shows, I assume you'll stop taking medicines now, right? After all, the use of those medicines in based on scientific research on their efficacy. Similarly, you should stop using the Internet, since the Internet is based on scientific studies on things such as the motion of satellites, aspects of computer science, and so on. Also, I suggest you no longer rely on vaccinations, since their use is also based on scientific studies. Futhermore, you should stop...

Abstinence is 100% effective in preventing herpes, HPV, HSV, and pregnancy. Monogamy is 100% effective in preventing herpes, HPV and HSV.

First, it's redundant to write "herpes [...], HSV". Google what "HSV" is, if you want to understand why (though based on your above comments, you don't like the use of "Google", if it leads to facts inconvenient for your position).

Second, what you wrote is technically false. For example, HPV and HSV can spread through non-sexual routes. And women can be raped, even if those women are practicing abstinence. Of course, many Republicans are opposed to allowing pregnant rape vitcims to get abortions, so...

Third, what you wrote does nothing to justify Teal's false claims regarding the efficacy of condoms.

I am unashamedly unconcerned with enabling consequence-free extramarital sex.

So you're unashamedly unconcerned will enabling the spread of misinformation about the efficacy of condoms in preventing pregnacy, and the spread of HPV and HSV? Glad to know where your priorities lie.

[Jichard]

Still pretending that your Google Scholarship is the same as actually working in the field?

Still pretending that scientific research isn't accurate, just because the research contradict's Teal's claims?

Are you so stupid as to think that because Teal (supposedly) worked as a nurse, then that makes her false claims true, even when her false claims contradict what the scientific evidenc shows?

It's really sad the lengths to which some of you conservative Christians go in spreading and defending dangerous misinformation.

[Jichard]

Trolling (jerkard definition): "HOW DARE YOU DISAGREE WITH ME!"

You seem to throw that term around rather liberally. I don't think it means what you think it means.

More trolling.

And what rock have you been living under? The wearing socks with sandals meme has been around for decades. Andus is from Central America and he got it, without it needing to be explained to him. Perhaps you should try getting out of your 'fortress of solitude' once in a while instead of trolling Christians on internet forums?

What rock have you been iving under? We've known for decades what Mr. Nobody is. Why don't you get jokes on Mr. Nobody.

Sorry jack ass, you can't answer my post and throw me out so I can't answer it, but go ahead and tell everybody what 'misinformation' I have been spreading around.

The misinformation mentioned in the OP that you were too lazy to read. That is: the misinformation on the efficacy of condoms in preventing pregancy, herpes, and HPV infection.

I've been on birth control pills for years and years now and what do you think my husband and I do at nights? Sit around and talk before going to bed? Please, you have no clue what you're talking about beyond a few 'studies' that you quickly googled up a few minutes before posting

And like a typical denialist, when you can't address scientific evidence, you attack the person, as opposed to addressing the evidence. Seriously, troll, making a post about "googling", does nothing to address the scientific evidence, nor does sticking the term "studies" in quotation marks, when you likely haven't even read nor understood the relevant studies.

By the way, you're making up nonsense again. I didn't google the studies "a few minutes before posting", as I made clear from the beginning:

Anyway, I've seen some other conservative Christians (including some Catholics) make the same false claim as you: that condoms are useless against HPV. So I checked out the evidence on the subject a few months ago. And, what do you knw, you guys are wrong.

But since when have you ever been honest, Mrs. I-claimed-to-have-read-a-study-and-then-denied-I-read-that-study?

while Teal worked in the industry for nearly two decades

Same old tired, fallacious reasoning on your part. Once again, her experience is largely irrelevant, and no more relevant than working with AIDS patients is relevant to whether HIV causes AIDS. For example: if some nurse worked with AIDS patients and that nurse claimed that HIV does not cause AIDS, then that nurse's experience is largely irrelevant to the question of whether HIV causes AIDS, since that nurse's experiences contradicts the overwhelming scientific evidence that HIV causes AIDS. Similarly, Teal's experience as a nurse means nothing in the face of the scientific evidence contradicting Teal's claims.

(and found serious problems with your claims, that you ignored).

Teal found no serious problems with my claims. What she actually did, was basically ignore the research that contradicted her claims, while failing to provide any evidence for her claims. It was fun watching her dodge, while Sam posted some of the evidence contradicting Teal's claims.

Who should I believe? A humorless troll, who tries to be a Google Scholar or somebody that worked in a field directly related to this topic? Decisions decisions...

You do realize I work in the field of immunology, right? That's what I do my research in. Which is one reason why I was able to recognize the silliness of Teal's claims when she made them. No sensible person currently working in immunology is ignorant enough to think that condoms are not effective in preventing the spread of the pathogens that cause STIs.