Originally posted by shunyadragon
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The Oklahoma Supreme Court rules against 10 Commndment monument
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo tell me Shuny, what other set of moral codes influenced US law more than the Biblically based English Common law? And since Biblical law had such a profound influence why is it wrong to have the Ten Commandments on state property - it is a large part of our history.
Greek and Roman Common Law clearly have older independent legal systems then Christianity, and independent of Jewish Commandments from Deuteronomy, which likely have older roots in Babylonian and Canaanite Law.
English Common Law is older than Christian influence in Great Britain and has some of its roots in Celtic common law. Yes Christianity influenced the development of Common Law and American Law, but the whole story is more complex with different sources and cultures involved.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostHow long before Christians will have to talk about the evil of the constitution and its moral errors?"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell well yes, but...
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel05.html
BTW Tass, you don't want to get into a quote war with me on this, I know way more about this subject than you.
It can be reasonably inferred that the Founding Fathers intended to keep government separate from religion as can be seen by Jefferson's explicit reference in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association. Namely that there exists a "wall of separation between church and State". Madison also writes that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."
As the Treaty of Tripoli makes clear: "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". There's absolutely no reason to think that this did not represent the overall view of the Founding Fathers at the beginning of the American government.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostFirst, Babylonian Code of Hammurabi is older and forms a foundation of Civilization Codes of Law. Vedic (Hindu) is older also, and these Codes of Law predate the Biblical Commandment,Deuteronomy, including the reader's digest version of the Ten Commandments. Codes of Law are common to all cultures, and Biblical Codes are just one of many similar.
Greek and Roman Common Law clearly have older independent legal systems then Christianity, and independent of Jewish Commandments from Deuteronomy, which likely have older roots in Babylonian and Canaanite Law.
English Common Law is older than Christian influence in Great Britain and has some of its roots in Celtic common law. Yes Christianity influenced the development of Common Law and American Law, but the whole story is more complex with different sources and cultures involved.
I mean isn't Moses with the Ten Commandments at the center of the facade over the Supreme Court:
Supreme_court_east_facade.jpgAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere are no "buts". The US Constitution is a secular document. It was based upon English Common Law which derived from the Saxon settlement of England some two centuries before England became a Christian nation. As Jefferson says in his in his letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814: "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
INTRODUCTORY REMARKS ABOUT KING ALFRED'S LAW CODE
However, Alfred's most important work was certainly his Law Code. It is preceded by a long introduction. (12) This contains translations not only of the Ten Commandments, but also of many other passages from the book af Exodus.(13) It is followed by an excerpt from Christ's Sermon an the Mount (14) and by a brief account of apostolic history (with quotations from the apostolic book of Acts). (15) There, Alfred stresses the jots and tittles alias the minutiae of God's Law and His Prophets (Matthew 5:17); the Golden Rule (Matthew 7:12); and the God-inspired decision af the First General Assembly of the Christian Church - in order to teach God's Law and His Prophets (Amos 9:11) as well as His Gospel also in the congregations of Christ (Acts 15:15-29 & 16:4f).
About a fifth of the law code is taken up by Alfred's introduction, which includes translations into English of the Decalogue, a few chapters from the Book of Exodus, and the "Apostolic Letter" from Acts of the Apostles (15:23–29). The Introduction may best be understood as Alfred's meditation upon the meaning of Christian law.[66] It traces the continuity between God's gift of Law to Moses to Alfred's own issuance of law to the West Saxon people. By doing so, it links the holy past to the historical present and represents Alfred's law-giving as a type of divine legislation.[67]
This is the reason that Alfred divided his code into precisely 120 chapters: 120 was the age at which Moses died and, in the number-symbolism of early medieval biblical exegetes, 120 stood for law.[68] The link between the Mosaic Law and Alfred's code is the "Apostolic Letter," which explained that Christ "had come not to shatter or annul the commandments but to fulfill them; and he taught mercy and meekness" (Intro, 49.1). The mercy that Christ infused into Mosaic Law underlies the injury tariffs that figure so prominently in barbarian law codes, since Christian synods "established, through that mercy which Christ taught, that for almost every misdeed at the first offence secular lords might with their permission receive without sin the monetary compensation, which they then fixed."[69]
No amount of cherry-picked quotes in the mighty seer tradition can alter the fact that the US Constitution is, in and of itself, a secular document which at no point refers to God or Christianity.
It can be reasonably inferred that the Founding Fathers intended to keep government separate from religion as can be seen by Jefferson's explicit reference in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association. Namely that there exists a "wall of separation between church and State". Madison also writes that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThe question was Shuny, how much actual influence did those other moral codes have on US law? And since you agree that Biblical law did influence US law why then would it be wrong to have the Ten Commandments on state property. Even if only as an historical reference?
I mean isn't Moses with the Ten Commandments at the center of the facade over the Supreme Court:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]7849[/ATTACH]
There have been objections of Muhammad being portrayed with a sword, but in many depiction of statues concerning justice, the sword is included as implement of justice. It is true that the sword can cut two ways in human hands, for justice and evil, but the depictions on numerous statues in the capital and elsewhere it is for justice.
In the Baha'i writings the sword is described in reality as cutting two ways; one heals and one destroys.Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2015, 07:32 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes, the issue is how much influence. I demonstrated that the influence is broader and older than just the 'Ten Commandments'. I do not believe that placing the 'Ten Commandments' alone is more than just a historical reference.
Yes, but you have not demonstrated how much influence these other moral codes actually had on our laws. We know that Biblical law had a profound influence through English common law and in the laws of the first 13 states. That is why they had laws against working on the Sabbath, Blasphemy, sodomy, adultery, fornication and homosexuality in general, etc...Last edited by seer; 07-06-2015, 08:35 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostAs the Treaty of Tripoli makes clear: "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". There's absolutely no reason to think that this did not represent the overall view of the Founding Fathers at the beginning of the American government.
The general Principles, on which the Fathers Atchieved Independence, were the only Principles in which, that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen9 could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their Address, or by me in my Answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity,10 in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities Sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.
Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God: and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.
So according to Adams it was the Principles of Christianity that lead to Independence, and that these principles were eternal and immutable.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes, but you have not demonstrated how much influence these other moral codes actually had on our laws. We know that Biblical law had a profound influence through English common law and in the laws of the first 13 states. That is why they had laws against working on the Sabbath, Blasphemy, sodomy, adultery, fornication and homosexuality in general, etc...Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2015, 08:57 AM.
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Utter nonsense Shuny. I have shown Biblical law in English Common Law, I have shown Biblical law on the state level. You have not shown one law from any of these other codes, and you have not shown how much if any influence they had on our law. And if you don't I will give Biblical law primacy - hence the Ten Commandments deserve a historical place in our national history. No other moral code had nearly the same influence.Last edited by seer; 07-06-2015, 09:48 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostUtter nonsense Shuny. I have shown Biblical law in English Common Law, I have shown Biblical law on the state level.You have not shown one law from any of these other codes, and you have not shown how much if any influence they had on our law. And if you don't I will give Biblical law primacy - hence the Ten Commandments deserve a historical place in our national history. No other moral code had nearly the same influence.
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Really? English Common laws was not dominate? And English was grounded in Biblical principles: see my links in post 18. Never mind state laws against things line working on the Sabbath and Blasphemy. I also showed that the early congresses supported the Christian religion by tax dollars, post 13. And that Christian principles were key to Independence, And let me quote.
1813, June 28: Adams to Jefferson
http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/...ffersoncor.pdf
The general Principles, on which the Fathers Achieved Independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite . . . . And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence. Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostReally? English Common laws was not dominate? And English was grounded in Biblical principles: see my links in post 18. Never mind state laws against things line working on the Sabbath and Blasphemy. I also showed that the early congresses supported the Christian religion by tax dollars, post 13. And that Christian principles were key to Independence, And let me quote.
1813, June 28: Adams to Jefferson
http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/...ffersoncor.pdf
You have no other moral code that comes close to this influence, if you do please post it or hold your peace. Because again Shuny, you have no idea what you are talking about.Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2015, 10:53 AM.
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