Lowering the Confederate Flag - and Wally World

[Darth Executor]

I believe in separating the issues.

They are impossible to separate.

[seanD]

Pulling the confederate flag is an almost entirely symbolic gesture that allows someone to really do nothing and yet act like they did something noble.

Think of how notorious Dylann Roof feels knowing he's responsible for this. Imagine the influence this will have on the next shooter who wants to go down in history the same way.

[Cow Poke]

Think of how notorious Dylann Roof feels knowing he's responsible for this.

That's in the "plus" column of my confliction -- that this idiot will live (for however long that is) to know that instead of causing a race war, he caused the Confederate Flag to be lowered.

Imagine the influence this will have on the next shooter who wants to go down in history the same way.

I don't think they think that way.

[seanD]

That's in the "plus" column of my confliction -- that this idiot will live (for however long that is) to know that instead of causing a race war, he caused the Confederate Flag to be lowered.



I don't think they think that way.

You don't think the political sensationalism will inspire the next shooter?

[Cow Poke]

You don't think the political sensationalism will inspire the next shooter?

I think this case is a bit different than other mass killings.

[Sam]

I'm conflicted on this.

I'm inclined to agree that the Confederate Flag on the grounds of the South Carolina Capitol should be lowered for good. But I think this is probably (in my own situation) in sympathy to the incredibly graceful way in which the members and friends of Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church have responded to the violence visited upon them by a hateful young racist.

On the other hand, I think it's ridiculous that Walmart has made an announcement that they are pulling anything Confederate Flag related. The Confederacy is part of our History. Texas even requires a college course (for those attending college) on US History which includes a thorough treatment of the War of Northern Aggression.

"We never want to offend anyone with the products that we offer" -- how is that even possible? How is it possible to "never offend anyone"?

Anyway, POLITE discussion, please, on your opinion about symbols of the Confederacy being removed from public view.



Disclaimer - I have never felt inclined to fly - or even own - a Confederate flag, and I don't own any articles of clothing that use the Confederate flag as an element of design or... It just seems like knee-jerk reaction to remove symbols of part of our history because they offend somebody.

It's not as if a bunch of Southerners decided one day to have a war with the North just for kicks.

What does "proudly associate" mean? I have some German war artifacts - I don't "proudly associate" with them, but there's no dispute that they were part of world history.

No, they decided to have a war explicitly in order to preserve slavery.

To quote a friend (and not a great War Nerd article, as this is to be a polite discussion), "there should be no memorials to the Confederacy or any of its 'heroes'. Problem solved." Insofar as companies like Wal-Mart should sell the paraphernalia of secessionists and supremacists, that's their decision.

[Cow Poke]

No, they decided to have a war explicitly in order to preserve slavery.

The very first paragraph of your cite is about States' Rights.

[Sam]

The very first paragraph of your cite is about States' Rights.

Read the thing.

[KingsGambit]

The very first paragraph of your cite is about States' Rights.

The first paragraph also specifies that it's only the slaveholding states. And after they explain their stance about the perceived violations of states rights, every single example actually cited explicitly deals with slavery.

[Darth Executor]

No, they decided to have a war explicitly in order to preserve slavery.

The debate wasn't over slavery in general, but over the preferred mode of slavery. The southerners were more inclusive in this regard, while the northerners preferred to boat in and work Irishmen to death to the exclusion of less civilized slavery plots. Always the good businessmen, Northerners realized there's less overhead with their way.

[Cow Poke]

The first paragraph also specifies that it's only the slaveholding states.

Correct.

And after they explain their stance about the perceived violations of states rights, every single example actually cited explicitly deals with slavery.

Yes, I read that.

[Cow Poke]

Read the thing.

I did.

[Catholicity]

But you want the stars and bars to be taken down, don't you?

Um just make sure you know which one is the Stars and Bars vs the Battle Flag. I mean you wouldn't want to confuse that with Polk's Flag or the Bonnie Blue.

Okay, I haven't responded yet. I didn't realize the history of this battle flag, that it was hung in protest in 1962 and rather than fly it, it would be more suited to be engraved on the memorial. and add the flag to a museum. "Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it" and I am quite disappointed at the number of people who just want battle flags erased. NC has a memorial that has an engraved flag on it. Its large and its on the Capitol Grounds. Sadly the Battle flag has not been properly memorialized even in history books. Its been attacked, used by those who want to attack others for little to no reason, and in the history books, told even to children not that "this was the flag that Tennesee and Northern Virginia used" but this flag only or primarily meant slavery.
As a woman who takes pride in representing the south and southern culture, not only is this an offense but its dead wrong, unfair to the men who died not for slavery but for the right of the states to make their own laws. (It is not taught the Generals that freed their slaves prior to the war nor is it taught the southern army was typically not composed of slave owners, and the first black troops fought in the south alongside white troops and they were freed men, Neither is it taught that Sherman is one of the worst hypocrites in history.) I don't think Wal Mart should take their merchandise down, any more than I think truck stops should cease selling shot glasses with Georgia's State Flag. Some people are calling for Alabama and Florida to change their flags because of the "Southern Cross" outline, and Georgia to change its flag because of the clear Stars and Bars. I think its out of hand. In some ways, I'm tempted to get a confederate display of some kind just to protest everything but S.C's removal, however for some reason, most of Kansas (way too yankified for me) thinks that would mean I was prejudiced, since its not benign like it would me if I was in my home state I doubt I will. But I sure wish people would take a second look at what they are being told instead of blindly following this. At times this makes me really uncomfortable because I feel so out of place since I am supportive of people who do choose to fly or display their confederate heritage

[rogue06]

That's why I'm conflicted -- what does it really accomplish?

It's a "feel good" measure. What do those ever really accomplish

[Sam]

I did.

Then you know that the "state's right" argument is, at best, a thin veneer for the Confederacy's reason for secession: preserving the institution of slavery.

You can argue that it was "state's rights" only in the explicit context of "the right of the states to preserve the institution of slavery." Anything less is disingenuous for people who've read the secessionists' declarations. Texas' declaration is quintessential Texas in its bombast:

Source: DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon the unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color--a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and the negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

...

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States.


By the secession of six of the slave-holding States, and the certainty that others will speedily do likewise, Texas has no alternative but to remain in an isolated connection with the North, or unite her destinies with the South.

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