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Dealing with Gun Control Advocates

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  • Dealing with Gun Control Advocates

    To prevent another thread for being dragged further of topic and because opening up a hornets nest is a hobby of mine. Time to deal with gun control advocates and their arguments. First, what is a gun control advocate? I'd say it can be pretty wide from outright banning of guns of any type to controlling access. Most countries do have some type of laws in place about controlling access, but the question is how far should it go? A valid question, but for this thread I'll mostly deal with the strawmen presented about 'gun culture' and things of that nature. So time to get to work:

    1. "The US has the highest murder rate of any western nation."

    Be wary of anybody attempt to quote partial stats and not studying historical trends (as you should, if you want your policy to be taken seriously). In reality, violent crimes have been dropping across the US for decades now (see here for per 100,000 stats on criminal rates, in the US) while at the same time, the US has more guns than any nation in the world (around 90 per 100, from what I could find). There's been drops of murder rates, across the west, so for gun control advocates claims to make sense, they need to show their gun control polices are the cause. Since crime has been falling in the US too (where gun ownership remains high) there seems to be zero connection between drops in crime rates and stricter gun control policies. Likewise, expanding this to other crimes doesn't help either since crime rates have been dropping across the US too. This leads to number two:

    2. What about other nations?

    This is something that gun control advocates don't tend to address. They seem to only want to count nations that were part of the British Empire and/or western Europe. What about other countries? Russia's murder rate is at 11.2, Mexico is at 21.5, and Brazil is at 25.2. What about their gun control laws? Countries tend to have quite a bit of differences between gun control laws, but Russia, Mexico, and Brazil already have gun control measures in place (with Russia and Mexico having stricter ones than the US does and Brazil has gun control laws in the books too. Likewise, Serbia has very loose gun control laws and yet has a murder rate of 1.2. Clearly again, gun control advocates are very selective with their data and don't seem to go any further. With this though, there's still other things that need addressing.

    There's other points that do need to be addressed, but these are a good starting point and makes it pretty clear that gun control seems to have very little link to the drop of criminal rates over the past 2 and half decades can't be claimed on gun control policy.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  • #2
    I think the high rate of murder in the US is more of a cultural thing than a gun thing. Let's face it, we Americans are crazy aggressive.

    Just look at our prime time TV. Sex and profanity are bad, but it's perfectly fine to show people beating the snot out of each other, riddling each other with bullets, and blowing each other up. We have many popular film heroes who rack up high kill counts. We still have that cowboy mentality. On the one hand, it's a sign of our strength and dedication to personal freedoms. On the other, well, there's that high murder rate.

    I don't mind the gun control types, because they're a balance. I like balances. Sometimes, when we go too far, we need something to pull us back a bit. So I'd just point out to the gun control people that it's not the guns, it's the people, but I wouldn't ask them to stop agonizing about all the gun abuse.
    Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
      I think the high rate of murder in the US is more of a cultural thing than a gun thing. Let's face it, we Americans are crazy aggressive.
      Nah, I don't think so at all because every country has cultures within cultures. Are there some subcultures that are more violent and aggressive than others? Sure there is and that is some of the problem. I think part of the issue is that no other western country has a border with a country that violence is wide spread and some of it ends up spilling into the US.

      Just look at our prime time TV. Sex and profanity are bad, but it's perfectly fine to show people beating the snot out of each other, riddling each other with bullets, and blowing each other up. We have many popular film heroes who rack up high kill counts. We still have that cowboy mentality. On the one hand, it's a sign of our strength and dedication to personal freedoms. On the other, well, there's that high murder rate.
      Many of these same movie ends up all over the world too and that is only some movies. I personally prefer my Disney movies over most of the violent movies myself (Star Trek is about as violent as I get). There's also been very little research that shows violent media has much of any link to more violence. I'm not much of a fan of violent movies (the last movie I saw was Cinderella), but I can't really find much of a link between violent movies/games and actual violence.

      I don't mind the gun control types, because they're a balance. I like balances. Sometimes, when we go too far, we need something to pull us back a bit. So I'd just point out to the gun control people that it's not the guns, it's the people, but I wouldn't ask them to stop agonizing about all the gun abuse.
      The issue with many of the gun control advocates is they only report some facts and not others (IE only wanting to count some countries and ignoring others). When you start looking at the world as a whole; you run into problem's. Russia has pretty strict gun control laws, yet has a murder rate almost 3 times higher than the US. Mexico also has gun control laws too and they have 6 times the murder rate the US has. Clearly, gun control seems to have very little in common with murder and crime rates and we should look at other factors in play beyond merely the amount of guns a country has.
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm told that gun control advocates are vulnerable to silver bullets. Also regular bullets. Really, most solutions that involve small pieces of metal flying at supersonic speeds will work on them.

        Alternatively, if you have actual man muscles, you can put them in a headlock until they call for guys with bullets, that tends to make their case look bad.

        Comment


        • #5
          Considering all the murder tropes that Epoetker evokes, I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI has a lengthy file on him by now...


          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
          Many of these same movie ends up all over the world too and that is only some movies. I personally prefer my Disney movies over most of the violent movies myself (Star Trek is about as violent as I get). There's also been very little research that shows violent media has much of any link to more violence. I'm not much of a fan of violent movies (the last movie I saw was Cinderella), but I can't really find much of a link between violent movies/games and actual violence.
          I didn't mean to imply that the media feeds the violence. What I mean is that the media reflects the culture. The culture feeds the violence in the media.
          Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
            Considering all the murder tropes that Epoetker evokes, I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI has a lengthy file on him by now...
            I made the top of the "When the Real Rain Comes" file.

            I didn't mean to imply that the media feeds the violence. What I mean is that the media reflects the culture. The culture feeds the violence in the media.
            The larger media's job is to manufacture public consent via the presentation of a slant that they want you to believe in, not reflect the culture, as though they were simple repeaters of popular things for quick cash, like WorldStarHipHop, which actually does mindlessly reflect the violence of every day black American culture. The media will present violence against people it hates as either laudable or 'unavoidable', while jumping on the mildest criticism of people it likes as 'problematic' or possibly racist. Alternatively, any story that makes people it likes look bad will be studiously ignored.

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            • #7
              I do think its cultural here and I know it's an issue in countries where drug gangs control the people and the govt has little authority. I am not opposed to controlling weaponry to a degree but first we need to figure out how to keep a handle on the issues that spark the talks about gun control in the first place. Our poorly handled criminal justice system which like it or not they can police what goes on with the inmates better. Keeping the mentally unstable off the street and in their respective institution s and group homes and rehab for non violent offenders so that violent offenders can be imprisoned properly. Then we should address gun control.
              A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
              George Bernard Shaw

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
                I'm told that gun control advocates are vulnerable to silver bullets. Also regular bullets. Really, most solutions that involve small pieces of metal flying at supersonic speeds will work on them.

                Alternatively, if you have actual man muscles, you can put them in a headlock until they call for guys with bullets, that tends to make their case look bad.
                Stick to the topic or don't let the door hit you on the way out.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                  Considering all the murder tropes that Epoetker evokes, I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI has a lengthy file on him by now...
                  Just start playing this, whenever Epo talks (that is what I do).

                  I didn't mean to imply that the media feeds the violence. What I mean is that the media reflects the culture. The culture feeds the violence in the media.
                  Most deceptions of violence, in the media, are so inaccurate (including inaccurate stunts that would actually kill you and/or give you serious injuries if you ever attempted them) that I doubt people who actually are violent get much of anything from them. I haven't really been able to find much of a link between violent media and violent action (I've tried). You might be able to argue about it's effects of desensitizing people, but that seems to be about it.
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                    I do think its cultural here and I know it's an issue in countries where drug gangs control the people and the govt has little authority. I am not opposed to controlling weaponry to a degree but first we need to figure out how to keep a handle on the issues that spark the talks about gun control in the first place. Our poorly handled criminal justice system which like it or not they can police what goes on with the inmates better. Keeping the mentally unstable off the street and in their respective institution s and group homes and rehab for non violent offenders so that violent offenders can be imprisoned properly. Then we should address gun control.
                    Yeah, I think that is a better way to go about it. Our prisons can often end up as a place to help criminals teach each other better ways to do crimes. Figuring a better way to handle them (including separation between violent and non violent criminals) might help out or even trying sentences such as community service (for non violent offenders at least) might be a good start.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                      I didn't mean to imply that the media feeds the violence. What I mean is that the media reflects the culture. The culture feeds the violence in the media.
                      Violence has been in the world since Cain killed Abel. It is all a part of the human sin nature. Controlling guns is a waste of effort as more guns seems to result in less violence, not more.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The US has legislation that controls what kinds of weapons a citizen may legally own. You already have gun control. To parse the issue as a false dichotomy does it no favours. The issue really is: Does the US have an APPROPRIATE level of weapons control? Are there other legislative avenues that might produce some benefit to society while not curtailing your freedom too much? Of course, I think there are.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                          Violence has been in the world since Cain killed Abel. It is all a part of the human sin nature. Controlling guns is a waste of effort as more guns seems to result in less violence, not more.
                          I'm not sure that is true. What would you cite as evidence?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                            The US has legislation that controls what kinds of weapons a citizen may legally own. You already have gun control. To parse the issue as a false dichotomy does it no favours. The issue really is: Does the US have an APPROPRIATE level of weapons control? Are there other legislative avenues that might produce some benefit to society while not curtailing your freedom too much? Of course, I think there are.
                            As I already showed, there is very little link between levels of gun control and violence. Russia has more gun control policy in place vs the US and yet has murder rates much higher than the US has. Mexico has gun controls in place, about the same as the US (in some cases more) and has even higher rates (I know because I spent quite a bit of time looking up world wide criminals rates and comparing them to gun control laws across the world). Clearly, the obvious conclusion is that gun control laws and levels of violence are not co related and causes of violence are more complex than merely levels of gun control a country practices (likewise, Serbia has some of the highest levels of gun ownership in the world, with relatively lax gun control laws vs the rest of Europe, yet has a murder rate of 1.2 per 100,000).

                            BTW I know you really hate me, but might I suggest you actually READ what I say before you decide to respond? I already dealt with that when I said:

                            "Most countries do have some type of laws in place about controlling access, but the question is how far should it go?"

                            Try reading before you respond next time. It usually keeps egg off your face.
                            Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 04-18-2015, 07:30 PM.
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                              I'm not sure that is true. What would you cite as evidence?
                              No solid evidence, it is just that the states with the strongest gun control laws have the highest levels of gun violence. And the trend seems to go along with that. General reading no solid evidence.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment

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