Originally posted by Starlight
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CS Lewis on American Politics
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Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-12-2015, 08:12 PM."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIt's certainly pretty easy to find plenty of false things that conservatives consider true.
I have the opposite complaint about politifact: They seem to go out of their way to be generous to conservatives.
There's plenty of other fact-checking organizations. They all observe that US conservatives get their facts wrong regularly, far far more than US liberals. There was a reason that Karl Rove described liberals as "reality-based" and Stephen Colbert joked that "reality has a well-known liberal bias". Because empirically speaking, in the US the 'liberals' tend to get their facts right and the 'conservatives' tend to get their facts wrong. This is what makes the rest of the world have such an awed and horrified fascination with US politics, because the conservatives there are just so insane.
So, which part of there are different segments in the show did you not understand? Your complaint is like saying that a news program is false because it had some ads in it and those ads were false.
You're also rather naively believing at face value one-sided unsubstantiated claims certain people are making as to what other people allegedly told them to expect. People who go on TV shows of every kind seem to regularly find it was not what they were expecting. It's probably a poor choice in general for a person to go on any show that is hostile to their position, because they're probably going to be unhappy with the outcome."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostDo you ever get tried of ranting and raving and dishonestly portraying people who dare to disagree with you as uncaring monsters, who don't care about others?
Well, you do get your news source for a hypocritical, lying, comedian
Yep because anybody who disagrees with the great LightBright, is an uneducated moron that doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.
I do have a college degree, so I thought I'd get that out there before you start ranting about how anybody who disagree with you must be an uneducated religious bigot.
What do you end up doing when you run into educated religious people?
BTW what do you do with Christians that don't care much about the hypocritical attitude of the 'Religious Right' either?
I'm not saying "all Christians belong to the Religious Right", I'm saying that the Religious Right exists and they've had a big effect on US politics, and there are historical reasons why they exist.
I'm sorry, but can you please explain to me how Obama has helped the poor anymore than you rant about the 'religious right' as doing?
Obama has certainly fallen far short of what many progressives hoped for, and is regularly condemned by many progressives for failing to do enough to help the poor.
Democrats love business too.
However, overall, by any measure, the Republicans are faaaaaaar more corrupt and more in the pockets of the billionaires than the Democrats are. Some Democrats are corrupt, but nearly ALL the Republicans are totally-off-the-charts corrupt. The Democrats have regularly tried to put laws and constitutional amendments in place to prevent & reduce corruption, but the Republicans keep blocking and rejecting them. As recently as last September, every Democrat in the Senate voted to place limits on political donations and every Republican in the Senate voted against it. Gee, I wonder who likes the corruption more?
Please, anybody who thinks Democrats are good and honest people are just as stupid as people who think Republicans are good and honest people.
Besides, you seem to ignore the fact that single and young people eventually become married and old people and move to a more conservative stance of politics.
Simply put, married and older people don't care about the same issues as single and young people.
There is that demonizing again because we all know that anybody who dares to disagree with the great LightBright, just don't care about the poor or sick."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostHowever, overall, by any measure, the Republicans are faaaaaaar more corrupt and more in the pockets of the billionaires than the Democrats are.
Some Democrats are corrupt, but nearly ALL the Republicans are totally-off-the-charts corrupt. The Democrats have regularly tried to put laws and constitutional amendments in place to prevent & reduce corruption, but the Republicans keep blocking and rejecting them. As recently as last September, every Democrat in the Senate voted to place limits on political donations and every Republican in the Senate voted against it. Gee, I wonder who likes the corruption more?"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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So Republicans are corrupt...ok, I agree. I'm not a Republican, nor am I a fan of them. But it's totally freaking bizarre and kind of hilarious that a lot of people will say that and then, in the same breath, talk about how wonderful and altruistic and upright and thoughtful and compassionate the Democrats are. I mean...for real?I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostBut it's totally freaking bizarre and kind of hilarious that a lot of people will say that and then, in the same breath, talk about how wonderful and altruistic and upright and thoughtful and compassionate the Democrats are. I mean...for real?
The only two people I admire in US politics are Elizabeth Warren, and Bernie Sanders, who are both Democrats or Democrat-aligned. So there are some good Democrats. I don't think there are any good Republicans.
I simply wanted to make it clear that I don't see there as being any form of equivalency between the Republicans and the Democrats in the US. The Democrats are terrible politicians for the most part and pretty corrupt for the most part. I really don't see the vast majority of the Democrats as being very great at all. But they are orders of magnitude better than the Republicans who are just absolutely nutty and utterly corrupt.
Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostLimits on political donations are unconstitutionalLast edited by Starlight; 02-13-2015, 12:46 AM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThe idea is to pass a constitutional amendment to make them constitutional."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostYeah, the problem isn't just the amendment, it's that people in America like their free speech.
this is really just a made-up issue Democrats use to whip up their deranged leftist base, who think they're fighting corporations when they're actually owned by them.
Politicians often say one thing and do another, but their actual voting record ultimately speaks volumes."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThis insane Republican spin that limiting bribery and corruption is equivalent to limiting free speech would be hilarious if it wasn't such a serious issue.
But speaking of corruption, are you in favor of canceling welfare then? After all Democrats pay welfare to the poor and most of them vote Democrat in return. That's pretty much straight up bribery, and unlike campaign contributions it's done with public money.
Your conspiracy theories that the Democrats don't really stand for something that they unanimously voted for are amusing.
Politicians often say one thing and do another, but their actual voting record ultimately speaks volumes."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostLimiting how much money you can spend to advertise in favor of a politician you like IS a free speech issue.
In practice bribery is bribery, and money is not speech. Enormous wealth can be used to buy a megaphone so big that it drowns out everyone else, thereby limiting the speech of others. It can equally be used to buy the favors of politicians.
But speaking of corruption, are you in favor of canceling welfare then?
For example both parties often shuffle votes to allow members in contested districts to pretend they oppose something by voting against it even if they don't actually oppose it."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostEr, so are you in favor of giving everyone enough money to allow them to max-out their possible political donations? Otherwise you're limiting their speech,
and you've got a system in which the poor do not have remotely as much 'free speech' as the rich.
In practice bribery is bribery, and money is not speech.
Enormous wealth can be used to buy a megaphone so big that it drowns out everyone else, thereby limiting the speech of others. It can equally be used to buy the favors of politicians.
Political corruption is about corrupting politicians. Corrupting the populace is not a thing: Politicians enacting laws that make the populace happy is the whole point of democracy.
It would seem rather hard to shuffle votes when they voted unanimously. Unless your level of conspiracy theory extends to thinking they swapped votes with the Republicans by agreement in order for the Republicans to deliberately let the Democrats score points against them?"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostOoooh, that's actually a good way of phrasing it.
As I mentioned earlier, I have 8 main sources for my news, only one of which is the Daily Show.
But you'd find plenty of fault with the others because you seem to like finding fault with sources. Anything short of a conservative blogger is apparently "too liberal" for you. Four other US sources I enjoy watching are "Last Week Tonight with John Oliver", and the youtube channels The Young Turks, Sam Seder, and the David Pakman Show. I actually look forward to reading your rant about how liberal/stupid/wrong they are.
It's probably true that I'm generally too-ready to dismiss people who disagree with me as stupid. That said, most posters here seem about 1000x quicker to do exactly that than I would ever be.
Sure. You do realize I was generalizing about a significant segment of the US population, right, and not talking specifically you personally? Although sometimes people with a little bit of education are actually the worst because they think of themselves as educated and qualified when sometimes they don't seem to have much of a clue at all.
Usually we get on very well. When I did my undergrad degrees I was part of a Christian group at my university, and many of my best friends today were friends I made then. About half of us have become atheists over the years since, but I still get on just fine with the ones that are still Christians. And on other websites where there are highly educated religious people, discussion between me and them tends to go very well (orders of magnitude better than it does here).
We jointly roll our eyes at the Religious Right.
I'm not saying "all Christians belong to the Religious Right", I'm saying that the Religious Right exists and they've had a big effect on US politics, and there are historical reasons why they exist.
Introducing the Affordable Care Act and expanding Medicaid. Increasing the minimum wage.
Obama has certainly fallen far short of what many progressives hoped for, and is regularly condemned by many progressives for failing to do enough to help the poor.
That's true, and the US has a serious corruption problem, with both parties receiving significant money on an ongoing basis from big business. Many progressives are deeply unhappy about the amount of money that Hillary has already received from Wall St.
However, overall, by any measure, the Republicans are faaaaaaar more corrupt and more in the pockets of the billionaires than the Democrats are. Some Democrats are corrupt, but nearly ALL the Republicans are totally-off-the-charts corrupt. The Democrats have regularly tried to put laws and constitutional amendments in place to prevent & reduce corruption, but the Republicans keep blocking and rejecting them. As recently as last September, every Democrat in the Senate voted to place limits on political donations and every Republican in the Senate voted against it. Gee, I wonder who likes the corruption more?
The Republicans are off-the-charts insane and corrupt, and are either completely unhinged from reality or completely in the pocket of the mega-donors or both. Many of the Democrats are corrupt, with some partially or wholly in the pockets of the mega-donors. But, by and large, the Democrats actually hold views that are based in reality, and often actually work towards policies that would benefit America. An extensive analysis found that Republicans only ever pay attention to the views of the top 1%, while Democrats regularly pay attention to the views of the middle class as well as the top 1%. I think the Democrats aren't great, but compared to the Republicans they look like saints.
Current data suggests that the millennial generation is getting slightly more liberal as it ages, as my earlier link on the voting demographics of young people touched on.
I think that as any given generation grows up they tend to retain the social values that were dominant in their childhood/adolescence. Depending on how society has moved in the meantime, this might make them more conservative or more liberal compared to the rest of their society.
People with different values to me do tend to disagree with me.Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-13-2015, 09:20 PM."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Haha, funny quote Manwe, haha thanks for sharing it. We'll proceed not ruin it with the very thing Lewis was pointing out, guffaw.
“The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected. Even when the revolutionist might himself repent of his revolution, the traditionalist is already defending it as part of his tradition. Thus we have two great types -- the advanced person who rushes us into ruin, and the retrospective person who admires the ruins. He admires them especially by moonlight, not to say moonshine. Each new blunder of the progressive or prig becomes instantly a legend of immemorial antiquity for the snob. This is called the balance, or mutual check, in our Constitution.”
Just replace progressive with 'democrat' and conservative with 'republican' and you got modern US politics."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Haha, funny quote Manwe, haha thanks for sharing it. We'll proceed not ruin it with the very thing Lewis was pointing out, guffaw.
Although in some ways the quote's neither particularly deep nor meaningful: People everywhere are apt to get into arguments over politics, and these can often come across as very bizarre to outsiders. Most people are generally not that thrilled about at least one of the parties on their own country's political spectrum.Last edited by Starlight; 02-13-2015, 10:17 PM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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