Obama absolves Islam, rebukes Christianity

[pancreasman]

Imagine if everyone got together and forced him AND Biden to resign.

I believe such a process is called an election and I understand that you guys have one in a while.

[DLAbaoaqu]

Imagine if everyone got together and forced him AND Biden to resign.

[Carrikature]

Does this include racists?

Yep. Historically, racism is based primarily upon the belief that other races are subhuman. It's a combination of "not my camp" and "other camps are inferior".

[Carrikature]

It is entirely political bleed over. The main problem, as I see it, is that Christians mistake impotence for persecution. Christians have the numbers (at least nominally), so we should set the tone for policy.

Right.

Unfortunately, this interpretation of events is not congruent with reality. On important issues (immigration, abortion), the progressive position does cause considerable harm (with the former destroying the worker class liberals claim to care so much about). In fact with the former the law is nominally on conservatives' side but liberals still get their way on it. The reality is that on most issues both sides argue based on harm, with convincing arguments that harm is being done on both sides, but even when the law is on our side, the liberals still win on every issue other than gun control. The reality is that Christians (or, rather, white Conservative Christians, and to a lesser extent conservative catholic and black Christians) lose because everybody else cheats. Constitution protects you from being forced to bake cake for poz weddings? We'll just stuff the bench with our judges who will then proceed to ignore it. Stuff the APA full of mentally ill liberals (but I repeat myself) who declare there's nothing wrong with a ruptured rectum once in a while, etc.

I think the conservative groups are happy cheating, they're just not nearly as skilled at it. Witness voter id laws and district restructuring. I haven't actually argued that progressive/liberal positions don't cause harm, though. I think both sides have a lot of ideas that ultimately cause harm. That's part of the reason I'm independent.

Which facts, exactly? Fertility rates are rock bottom. Divorce rates are high and only dropping because people aren't even getting married anymore, and many of the few that do get married and have kids at ridiculous ages. Not only is the family unit disappearing but so is interest in even having a family.

The one thing I'll agree on is that poz marriage has little to do with it, but the harm caused by homosexuality has been demonstrated repeatedly on these boards so the broader argument on homosexuality are still based on harm.

You've answered your own question. The disappearance of the family unit is not attributable to an acceptance of same-sex marriage. We have bigger fish to fry, but they aren't the sort that can be legislated into place. I'm of the belief that government is not the tool for the job. I think a lot of conservatives claim to want small government except for where they need to make people comply with their beliefs. I think that exception ends up being relied upon more often than the rule.

[Darth Executor]

FWIW, I don't find "my own camp" reasoning to be incriminating. I realize that may not be how most people see it, but I think it's a basic part of human nature. It doesn't make any particular group more or less evil for feeling that way.

Does this include racists?

[Carrikature]

I thought the discussion was about the persecution "of Christians." So now you appear to be accusing me (and others here) of not caring about anyone but my own camp.

But anyway, carry on. This seems to be quickly degenerating.

Let's back up a step. I think we agree that there can be equivocation between what happens abroad and what happens in the US in terms of persecution. That equivocation is what I was referring to because it seems to be the source of most persecution claims. You want to leave that equivocation out of the discussion. So be it. You clarified in Post #46 that you were talking about the murder and torture of Christians. From what I can see, and I think that Pew Research study supports this, there's nothing particular about Christianity that's at play. What's really happening is persecution of religion. It just happens to include Christianity because it falls into the broader category. In light of that, I'd like to know why you think it's important to focus only on that of Christians.

FWIW, I don't find "my own camp" reasoning to be incriminating. I realize that may not be how most people see it, but I think it's a basic part of human nature. It doesn't make any particular group more or less evil for feeling that way.

[Darth Executor]

A high level. How does one quantify such things? The impression I receive from both Christians on this site and people I know in real life is that Christianity, and especially Christianity in the US, is in dire straits and getting attacked from all sides. In part, I think this is political bleed over.

It is entirely political bleed over. The main problem, as I see it, is that Christians mistake impotence for persecution. Christians have the numbers (at least nominally), so we should set the tone for policy.

The conservatives in the US are predominantly Christian, and a lot of the stances and laws that are getting struck down are founded on Christian beliefs on right and wrong. It's normal and expected for a person to vote in accordance with that they think is right or wrong, but such beliefs aren't sufficient for basing laws upon. We should be outlawing things based on harm, not because we think a person shouldn't be doing it.

Unfortunately, this interpretation of events is not congruent with reality. On important issues (immigration, abortion), the progressive position does cause considerable harm (with the former destroying the worker class liberals claim to care so much about). In fact with the former the law is nominally on conservatives' side but liberals still get their way on it. The reality is that on most issues both sides argue based on harm, with convincing arguments that harm is being done on both sides, but even when the law is on our side, the liberals still win on every issue other than gun control. The reality is that Christians (or, rather, white Conservative Christians, and to a lesser extent conservative catholic and black Christians) lose because everybody else cheats. Constitution protects you from being forced to bake cake for poz weddings? We'll just stuff the bench with our judges who will then proceed to ignore it. Stuff the APA full of mentally ill liberals (but I repeat myself) who declare there's nothing wrong with a ruptured rectum once in a while, etc.

In many cases, Christians have attempted to show harm but have continually failed to succeed. Witness the claims surrounding the downfall of the family unit. The facts just don't bear out the beliefs. When they don't, the laws and ideologies those beliefs support come into question and often get struck down. That's to be expected.

Which facts, exactly? Fertility rates are rock bottom. Divorce rates are high and only dropping because people aren't even getting married anymore, and many of the few that do get married and have kids at ridiculous ages. Not only is the family unit disappearing but so is interest in even having a family.

The one thing I'll agree on is that poz marriage has little to do with it, but the harm caused by homosexuality has been demonstrated repeatedly on these boards so the broader argument on homosexuality are still based on harm.

[Zymologist]

I certainly don't consider the persecution in NK to be on par with whatever is supposedly happening in the US. What I typically hear from Christians, including those on this site, is worry about the latter. I don't see or hear all that much about the former. When persecutions in NK etc are mentioned, it's often indicated as part of the general persecution Christians face. That is, the sentiments I've heard expressed are effectively, "Persecution of Christians is getting worse, just look at these things that have happened recently in the US. It's even more apparent in places like NK, but it's just a matter of time until that happens here, too."

I think torture and murder are major concerns. I think most of us think that. Why add "of Christians" as if this makes it particularly damning? That's part of my point. This is the same thing people face the world over regardless of their particular affiliations. The root causes are extremism, and a end-justifies-the-means mentality. I think the unpleasant truth is that the "of Christians" is what makes it actually compelling for Christians. Without the "of Christians" added in, it's not all that interesting. It's the same phenomenon we see with everything else: make it personally relevant or no one cares.

I thought the discussion was about the persecution "of Christians." So now you appear to be accusing me (and others here) of not caring about anyone but my own camp.

But anyway, carry on. This seems to be quickly degenerating.

[Carrikature]

I think you're equivocating in your last paragraph (and square_peg, too). When I said "major concern," I wasn't talking about so-called persecution in the US. (For the record, I have personally never faced any and never claimed to. I'm also not considering mockery and ridicule to be persecution.) But that's exactly what the two of you refer to. I was talking about the torture and murder of Christians.

But if that's not a big deal to you, then ok. I guess Christians in North Korea just need to toughen up, huh?

I certainly don't consider the persecution in NK to be on par with whatever is supposedly happening in the US. What I typically hear from Christians, including those on this site, is worry about the latter. I don't see or hear all that much about the former. When persecutions in NK etc are mentioned, it's often indicated as part of the general persecution Christians face. That is, the sentiments I've heard expressed are effectively, "Persecution of Christians is getting worse, just look at these things that have happened recently in the US. It's even more apparent in places like NK, but it's just a matter of time until that happens here, too."

I think torture and murder are major concerns. I think most of us think that. Why add "of Christians" as if this makes it particularly damning? That's part of my point. This is the same thing people face the world over regardless of their particular affiliations. The root causes are extremism, and a end-justifies-the-means mentality. I think the unpleasant truth is that the "of Christians" is what makes it actually compelling for Christians. Without the "of Christians" added in, it's not all that interesting. It's the same phenomenon we see with everything else: make it personally relevant or no one cares.

[Zymologist]

A high level. How does one quantify such things? The impression I receive from both Christians on this site and people I know in real life is that Christianity, and especially Christianity in the US, is in dire straits and getting attacked from all sides. In part, I think this is political bleed over. The conservatives in the US are predominantly Christian, and a lot of the stances and laws that are getting struck down are founded on Christian beliefs on right and wrong. It's normal and expected for a person to vote in accordance with that they think is right or wrong, but such beliefs aren't sufficient for basing laws upon. We should be outlawing things based on harm, not because we think a person shouldn't be doing it. In many cases, Christians have attempted to show harm but have continually failed to succeed. Witness the claims surrounding the downfall of the family unit. The facts just don't bear out the beliefs. When they don't, the laws and ideologies those beliefs support come into question and often get struck down. That's to be expected.

Which brings me again to quantifying a major concern. The study Rogue referenced shows an increase in overall religious hostility in all areas except the Americas. I don't see or hear anything that shows Christian concern for those other religions. That's to be expected, but I'm certainly not going to take seriously any claim for special persecution (which is what's often done) when the increase isn't focused on a particular group. Even granting Rogue's 10% of Christians, that's not a large enough percentage to classify as 'major'. If it was a growing percentage, and the percentage was >33%, I'd be willing to grant it as major. As it stands, Christianity's foothold is strong and thriving, even if certain adherents are facing the same persecution their other religious neighbors are experiencing.

In answer to your question, the level I hear claimed is 'high', and I think your description of it as a major concern underscores that. To hear Christians tell it, they are facing rejection and hostility every day. It's perfectly reasonable to be worried about persecution, but I think it's incumbent on all of us to include context and put things into proper perspective. Here's a relevant anecdote: when my wife and I first started to turn away from Christianity, we were still attending a couple's bible study. My wife commented one time that she was noticing how often some of the other people would say things like "the world tells us X" or "the world wants us to do Y". The entire discussion was framed as Christians Vs The World. In my experience, this same frame of reference is what I see in a majority of Christians. You (general plural) tell yourselves and each other how hard it is to struggle against everything "the world" throws at you. Is it any surprise that you see persecution in so many things?

I think you're equivocating in your last paragraph (and square_peg, too). When I said "major concern," I wasn't talking about so-called persecution in the US. (For the record, I have personally never faced any and never claimed to. I'm also not considering mockery and ridicule to be persecution.) But that's exactly what the two of you refer to. I was talking about the torture and murder of Christians.

But if that's not a big deal to you, then ok. I guess Christians in North Korea just need to toughen up, huh?

[Darth Executor]

But he implies it all throughout the speech. He literally uses the phrase "in the name of Christ", not "Christian" or "Christianity". This is a direct correlation to his previous phrasing "those who profess Islam". You almost have to come at the whole video from the frame of mind that you don't like Obama to read it any other way. As a relatively neutral observer, it did not at all occur to me that he was doing something like blaming Christians or Christianity for the Crusades, slavery, and Jim Crow. He was expounding on the fact that all ideologies, misappropriated through sinful behavior, can cause evil.

I like how the point about the Crusades being primarily a retaliation against Muslim conquest of Christian lands gets missed in all this. It's telling of either Obola's ignorance of history, or of his hidden beliefs that Muslim terrorists are just protecting themselves from unwarranted aggression.

[Carrikature]

What level is it claimed to be on, then? You appear to be severely downplaying a major concern, i.e., "it's no big deal."

A high level. How does one quantify such things? The impression I receive from both Christians on this site and people I know in real life is that Christianity, and especially Christianity in the US, is in dire straits and getting attacked from all sides. In part, I think this is political bleed over. The conservatives in the US are predominantly Christian, and a lot of the stances and laws that are getting struck down are founded on Christian beliefs on right and wrong. It's normal and expected for a person to vote in accordance with that they think is right or wrong, but such beliefs aren't sufficient for basing laws upon. We should be outlawing things based on harm, not because we think a person shouldn't be doing it. In many cases, Christians have attempted to show harm but have continually failed to succeed. Witness the claims surrounding the downfall of the family unit. The facts just don't bear out the beliefs. When they don't, the laws and ideologies those beliefs support come into question and often get struck down. That's to be expected.

Which brings me again to quantifying a major concern. The study Rogue referenced shows an increase in overall religious hostility in all areas except the Americas. I don't see or hear anything that shows Christian concern for those other religions. That's to be expected, but I'm certainly not going to take seriously any claim for special persecution (which is what's often done) when the increase isn't focused on a particular group. Even granting Rogue's 10% of Christians, that's not a large enough percentage to classify as 'major'. If it was a growing percentage, and the percentage was >33%, I'd be willing to grant it as major. As it stands, Christianity's foothold is strong and thriving, even if certain adherents are facing the same persecution their other religious neighbors are experiencing.

In answer to your question, the level I hear claimed is 'high', and I think your description of it as a major concern underscores that. To hear Christians tell it, they are facing rejection and hostility every day. It's perfectly reasonable to be worried about persecution, but I think it's incumbent on all of us to include context and put things into proper perspective. Here's a relevant anecdote: when my wife and I first started to turn away from Christianity, we were still attending a couple's bible study. My wife commented one time that she was noticing how often some of the other people would say things like "the world tells us X" or "the world wants us to do Y". The entire discussion was framed as Christians Vs The World. In my experience, this same frame of reference is what I see in a majority of Christians. You (general plural) tell yourselves and each other how hard it is to struggle against everything "the world" throws at you. Is it any surprise that you see persecution in so many things?

[Cerebrum123]

You don't know Cerebrum?

You don't think that the Muslim terrorists actually embody the teachings of Mohammed, and Islam?

For what it's worth, I don't take the terrorists as representative of Muslims. I do however see that they embody the teachings of Islam, a subtle, but important difference.

It's a big deal if you're a Christian living in the Middle East or some countries in Africa, but there has to be some irony when the loudest complaints about Christian persecution come from the United States, the least persecuted Christian nation in the world.

Eh, as I wasn't dragged into this part, I think I'll keep out. I've been trying to keep serious interactions to a minimum here lately.

[fm93]

And no Christian that I know personally has ever said that.

You don't know Cerebrum?

What level is it claimed to be on, then? You appear to be severely downplaying a major concern, i.e., "it's no big deal."

It's a big deal if you're a Christian living in the Middle East or some countries in Africa, but there has to be some irony when the loudest complaints about Christian persecution come from the United States, the least persecuted Christian nation in the world.

[Zymologist]

Of course not. I deny that it's anywhere on the level it's claimed to be, and I claim that the justifications for such a view are very weak. Every religion faces persecution and danger in the world. Christianity isn't special in that regard, and if you read the actual study that Rogue references, that's pretty clear. The claim, though, is that 'Muslim ideology' is specifically fighting against Christians, which is pretty much nonsense.

What level is it claimed to be on, then? You appear to be severely downplaying a major concern, i.e., "it's no big deal."