Atlanta Fire Chief - fired for being Christian.

[Mountain Man]

Public Displays of Affection

Jerry Falwell used to be a big proponent of PDA between married couples. He said it kept the Delilah's away.

[Mountain Man]

So with regard to the pro-gay church that my friend helps run, that's attended by committed Christian couples in committed gay relationships...
Your theory is that those people will be eternally damned because the pastors there have tricked them into thinking they can be genuinely Christian and gay at the same time? The congregation might actually think that they are being obedient Christians, think they've accepted Christ into their heart and lives, but they've really been tricked by my friend into thinking it's okay to be both gay and Christian and are thus going to hell? I find the idea that someone who thinks they are a committed Christian is actually going to hell because their church's leadership has taught them the 'wrong' view about whether a particular action is sinful, to be utterly bizarre.

Anybody who says that you can be a committed Christian while unrepentantly living in sin is telling you a baldfaced lie from the devil himself, and if you are engaging in activity that the Bible condemns in the strongest terms, and you feel no compulsion to repent then you need to ask yourself if you're really a Christian.

Jesus himself said that there are those who will say on the Day of Judgment, "But Lord, didn't I do great works in your name?" and Jesus will say, "Depart from me. I never knew you." The Bible says in no uncertain terms that homosexuals, among other sinners, will not inheret the Kingdom of God.

Which is to say that it is impossible, literally impossible to be a committed homosexual and a committed Christian. No man can serve two masters. You are either a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness.

[lilpixieofterror]

There will be gay people in your area. The reason you can't remember ever seeing any gay PDA is because gay people worldwide have learned to their cost to avoid it.

Sorry, but I happen to know a few and well... you're kind of rather off because the places that a married woman, with children, are going to be attending are going to be pretty low PDA zones to begin with.

Yes, because on the hierarchy of human needs, love, companionship and sex are fundamental human needs. Whereas the vast majority of sins mentioned in the bible are sins of arbitrary choice.

Believe it or not, I did attend college too and nothing in the Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs implies that you need to be married, in order to be a 'complete' person. You might want to read your own link to see what it says here:

According to Maslow, humans need to feel a sense of belonging and acceptance among their social groups, regardless whether these groups are large or small. For example, some large social groups may include clubs, co-workers, religious groups, professional organizations, sports teams, and gangs. Some examples of small social connections include family members, intimate partners, mentors, colleagues, and confidants. Humans need to love and be loved – both sexually and non-sexually – by others.[2] Many people become susceptible to loneliness, social anxiety, and clinical depression in the absence of this love or belonging element. This need for belonging may overcome the physiological and security needs, depending on the strength of the peer pressure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%..._and_belonging

While it does that that intimate partners, are part of it, they are only a small part of it and this need can be fulfilled by other relationships too (such as the rest of your family or friends). What you are saying here is that my great aunt, who chose not to get married, is not a complete person. Do you have any idea how offense your own words are? You seem to complain about others being offensive, but make offensive statements of your own and seem blissfully unaware, of your own comments and the nature of them.

When so many lives are at stake, yes. You can either play your part in mass murder, or not. There's not really a third option.

Either/or fallacy. You're making up charges that don't exist and seem totally unaware of the logical fallacies you need to create, in order to make your arguments work. A third option is that you get yourself some self esteem and stop letting the opinions of others cause you so much grief. Funny, how I am perfectly capable of standing criticisms of things I believe, but others need to 'shut up' or else they are 'committing mass murder'. What a lovely false dilemma you've set up here. Too bad it is so false; it's laughable.

"voice their opinions" is not the same as "questioning". By all means, ask lots of questions. But telling people your negative opinions about their lives and choices isn't questioning, and it's harmful.

So I expect you, from now on, to not question Christianity or you are guilty of negative opinions against people's lives and choices and therefore, committing mass murder. Sorry, your logic, not mine, now are you going to stop doing what you accuse others of or is this view magical, special, and above the rules and standards that others need to be held to? Your logic is so faulty, that it is almost laughable.

I am not aware of what scientists think is going on in that situation. I've heard of twins being born where one's a lot bigger than the other, so apparently they can be get different levels of nutrients despite being in the same womb, but I don't know how that works.

So the idea, has a serious flaw. Where is the evidence, to back up the view that human sexuality is an unmoving thing, that never can be changed?

[lilpixieofterror]

On what basis do you discard Paul's writings from the Biblical canon?

He doesn't like it, duh.

[lilpixieofterror]

It's not a matter of just 'hurt feelings' it's a matter of thousands of gay people per year dying as a result from suicide, and turning to alcohol, drugs and smoking for stress relief from the barrage of anti-gay views that they are exposed to. And your justification for this is apparently a theology of salvation by works...

So can I blame atheist, when Christians commit suicide for presenting 'anti Christian views'. After all, it is your logic here, not mine...

[rogue06]

Sex is a fundamental human need?

Food and water is fundamental human need. Sex, aside from being procreative, is a gift of God, but it is certainly not something we're entitled to..

And definitely not necessary to an individual's survival.

Although it might make such survival seem hardly worth it.

[lilpixieofterror]

Sadly, yes.

On pages 14-16 of this report you'll find a summary of various studies on gay suicide attempt rates from around the world. Gay suicide rates are somewhere in the vicinity of 2-14 times that of straight people. That works out at hundreds or thousands of deaths per year depending on the size of the country.

So you're going to shut up about your atheism and not say a word, to any Christian about it... because if you do, you might make somebody commit suicide. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

[Christianbookworm]

And definitely not necessary to an individual's survival.

Although it might make such survival seem hardly worth it.

Who needs that anyways? I'm fine without it.

[Bill the Cat]

It's not a matter of just 'hurt feelings' it's a matter of thousands of gay people per year dying as a result from suicide, and turning to alcohol, drugs and smoking for stress relief from the barrage of anti-gay views that they are exposed to.

So, you would have us silenced out of emotional blackmail because THEY choose to hurt or kill themselves?

[Bill the Cat]

I've been to several, never seen any gay PDA there. Have you actually seen any yourself? Or have you just heard about the one day a year where there's a "gay day" at Disney parks?

Busch Gardens Williamsburg and King's Dominion in Doswell VA. See it at least a dozen times every time I go.

How many times do I have to call BS on this? You guys keep asserting that being gay is harmful.

It is SPIRITUALLY harmful in our view. It's not an assertion, it's a fact.

All the scientific organisations are saying it isn't.

They are peopled by gay rights proponents and liberal sympathizers. And they never define what they mean as "harmful".

So you're resorting to some sort of bizarre and totally unjustifiable works-based theology of "gay people will burn in hell even if they're Christians", without bothering to even attempt to justify on theological grounds that obviously unjustifiable statement.

Of course not. There is no such thing as "works-based salvation". If people are actively participating in homosexual activity, they are not Christians. Paul is clear on that.

Are you seriously suggesting that, in general, a single sin in a Christian's life that is not spoken out against will have eternal consequences?

If you think that God condones your sinful behavior, then you have no part in Him. That much is consistent with Christian dogma.

If that were the case, your church must be the most legalistic one in the entire world, and people in your church must condemn each other on an hourly basis.

I am currently not in any fellowship, so

But of course not. Instead of treating all sins equally, you've just fixated on getting the twig of homosexuality out of the eyes of others while ignoring logs in your own.

That's completely false. Nowhere do I expect God to accept my sin as an acceptable way to live. That's the thing you anti-Christians don't get in all of this. Sin is not a desirable condition. It is one to be repented of and rejected. We are to conform to GOD'S image, not make Him conform to ours.

[Jedidiah]

Apart from a few notorious exceptions I do not condemn churches or church goers in the least. The work that churches do in the community is very valuable. Christian theology, on the other hand is a little nasty in a few places and I think it is best to be realistic about the problems.

Yes, I agree you should be more realistic in your comments. What, realistically, do you see in Christian theology that is harmful or, in your own words " a little nasty?"

[Psychic Missile]

But you're not prepared to make a case that removing Paul from the canon is a correct and viable approach to the Bible, making this little more than a wild goose chase. As a skeptic once said, that which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

I'm not prepared to make an argument that's different from the argument I actually made, no. I will argue that being pro-homosexuality and being Christian are not incompatible.

[Starlight]

So you're going to shut up about your atheism and not say a word, to any Christian about it... because if you do, you might make somebody commit suicide. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

If you can show me data from major scientific organisations that it's causing suicides then I would definitely shut up! I don't want to be the cause of harm!

If your question is "why does condemning gay people cause suicides but condemning Christians doesn't?", then off the top of my head I can think of 3 possible reasons:

(1) There is no pervasive social stigma in the West against Christianity or religion. Some individuals condemn religion or a particular religion, but it is a not a pervasive social stigma. On the whole, many Western countries regard themselves as Christian nations and have a leader who publicly claims to be Christian. So there is pervasive social support of it, rather than stigma against it.

(2) Christians have a 'support network' of other Christians that they can talk to and rely on for support. Almost all Christians have Churches, cell groups, or Christian family members they can receive support from. Gay people don't necessarily have anyone - gay teenagers may be terrified of ever telling their family that they're gay because they know their family is anti-gay, and there may be no one at their school who's openly gay so they might not know a single other gay person, and their friends may regularly make anti-gay remarks in front of them so that the person is unwilling to even tell their friends they are gay. Alternatively they might tell people and receive nothing but negative reactions, have their friends disown and bully them, and have their parents kick them out of home. At that point suicide doubtless starts to look like a good option: Everyone is against them and no one is supporting them.

(3) Everyone knows religion is changeable. The vast majority of gay people do not believe that their sexuality is changeable. So in that sense it is viewed as a more innate and fundamental characteristic than religion. Therefore they would seem more likely to take deep-seated personal offense at any criticism and feel you are attacking their personal characteristics rather than merely ideas that they believe.

So, you would have us silenced out of emotional blackmail because THEY choose to hurt or kill themselves?

If you want to put it that way, yes. I would call it love, compassion, and empathy. And I am genuinely concerned and horrified that a lot of people on here seem to lack serious interest in those things.

Which is to say that it is impossible, literally impossible to be a committed homosexual and a committed Christian.

You know that various other Christians interpret the bible differently to you on all sorts of issues right? So it should come as no surprise to you that some Christians simply don't think the bible teaches against homosexuality, just as some believe it teaches salvation by works and others believe it teaches salvation by faith alone.

Likewise, as I am sure you are aware, lots of Christians do not accept the idea of biblical inerrancy. Thus they might say that “while the Bible often speaks positively about slavery, genocide, racism, torture, marital rape, and homophobia, Christians over the centuries through reflecting on the central biblical commandments to love others have come to realize that those things are wrong. Hence any biblical endorsement of those things should be regarded as a product of the authors' unenlightened cultural beliefs of the time, which hadn't yet been fully transformed and viewed through Christ-like love for others.”

Some US stats:

61 percent of Protestants believe homosexuality is sinful compared to 31 percent who don't. Among born-again, evangelical or fundamentalist Americans, 79 percent say it is sinful while 17 percent do not believe it is.
...
the majority of Catholics (55 percent) do not believe homosexual behavior is a sin. Only 39 percent of Catholics called it a sin.

So there are definitely plenty of Christians out there who don't think homosexual behavior is sinful.

No man can serve two masters.

The "religious right" appears utterly convinced they can serve both God and money at the same time. Of course, I never regarded them as True Christians when I was a Christian, since their teachings on wealth, greed, the poor and the rich were so anti-biblical. So I guess I understand you not regarding people as True Christians who don't agree with your view on homosexuality.

[Knowing Thomas]

There is no pervasive social stigma in the West against Christianity or religion. Some individuals condemn religion or a particular religion, but it is a not a pervasive social stigma.

....

You know I was going to make a really long drawn out comment about the stereotypes, prejudice, and outright hostility I've encountered on english-speaking message board communities almost entirely inhabited by "enlightened accepting liberal westerners who are closeted intolerant theophobes, especially against Christians and Muslims", NOT a few individuals, which at one time nearly drove me to the brink of considering killing myself if it was not for sites like TWeb, Quodlibeta, or Tektonics

or how I would be pressured to stay silent when people my age mock "Jesus freaks" (IE: anyone not "enlightened accepting liberal westerners who are closeted intolerant theophobes, especially against Christians and Muslims") in my presence (luckily it wasn't as common as some colleges are notorious for, given that it was a Catholic college with a very supportive and active campus ministry)

or even trying to watch TV, a movie or even play a video game to escape these jerks and encountering rich liberal atheists emulating the communist regimes of Eastern Europe by using media, higher education sophist professors, and celebrities to mock Christians as obtuse, backward, racist, and hypocritical (I use the TV mostly as background noise nowadays instead of an actual entertainment box) and how a secular world was inevitable for "equality" and "progress" (funny how that backfired, huh comrade?)...


...but then I realized time would be better spent posting a gif of a cat blocking a toy train and finding more productive ways to spend my time.

[firstfloor]

Yes, I agree you should be more realistic in your comments. What, realistically, do you see in Christian theology that is harmful or, in your own words " a little nasty?"

One of the worst ideas in religion generally is that there is something special and immutable about what you know (the revealed truth). This is typical:
“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.” – John 15:22
This is the sort of arrogance that kills.

It is interesting to observe that it is a disposable truth. If the book were to vanish, there is nothing in nature to reproduce it. That means that we can change it if we choose to. It seems bizarre but if you burned all the holy books, people would forget them and heaven and hell would disappear.