"Abortion is murder"

[Sparko]

EGGzackly --- same as my example where somebody was convinced that the "person" behind the screen was not an actual living human being.
If somebody shoots at a screen, NOT believing it's a human being, being ASSURED it was not a human being, no court in the land would convict that person of murder.
He was a victim of lies.

There's a concept in law called, "mens rea" which mean basically means "criminal intent" (literal translation is "guilty mind")

A mens rea refers to the state of mind statutorily required in order to convict a particular defendant of a particular crime. See, e.g. Staples v. United States, 511 US 600 (1994). Establishing the mens rea of an offender is usually necessary to prove guilt in a criminal trial. The prosecution typically must prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the offense with a culpable state of mind.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/mens_rea

[Whateverman]

Or he thinks that the human organism stays a single cell for nine months and miraculously turns into a baby at birth.

That's just as ridiculous as treating that human organism at conception as a baby, though.

Clearly, the growing organism starts off as something that looks nothing like a baby, and over the course of nine months, turns into a baby. Discussions about abortion usually ignore this simple fact - because to acknowledge it is to accept that it's a complex subject: morally, legally, etc.

[Cow Poke]

There's a concept in law called, "mens rea" which mean basically means "criminal intent" (literal translation is "guilty mind")

I hate to say it again, but....

EGGzackly!

[Bill the Cat]

That's just as ridiculous as treating that human organism at conception as a baby, though.

Clearly, the growing organism starts off as something that looks nothing like a baby, and over the course of nine months, turns into a baby. Discussions about abortion usually ignore this simple fact - because to acknowledge it is to accept that it's a complex subject: morally, legally, etc.

The term "baby" is a colloquial term meaning the offspring of a set of parents. It could mean the 4 week old fetus, the 3 month old infant, or the 27 year old mother-to-be.

[Cow Poke]

The term "baby" is a colloquial term meaning the offspring of a set of parents. It could mean the 4 week old fetus, the 3 month old infant, or the 27 year old mother-to-be.

The only time there's an objecting to refer to a baby in the womb as a baby seems to be when somebody is trying to defend abortion. Else wise, it's pretty universal.

[Whateverman]

The only time there's an objecting to refer to a baby in the womb as a baby seems to be when somebody is trying to defend abortion. Else wise, it's pretty universal.

A zygote isn't a baby. It really really really isn't.

An acorn aint a tree, either.

[Cow Poke]

A zygote isn't a baby. It really really really isn't.

An acorn aint a tree, either.

Cool.

When my daughter, who is having a terrible time getting pregnant due to complications, first heard the wonderful news that she was, indeed, 'pregnant', it was shortly followed by the tragic news that "she lost her baby".

I'm sure she would have felt much better if you explained it wasn't a baby.

[DivineOb]

OK, got lots of stuff taken care of this morning, so....

I really don't understand why you're making this so hard.

You're simply wanting me to say "women who have an abortion are baby killers"?
Is that it?
So you can win points or something?

No, the goal is not to win points against you.

Here's the first problem --- a young uninformed girl (two weeks ago, I sat with a 14 year old pregnant girl, along with my Nurse daughter) is scared to death because she's pregnant, and knows that soon it will become evident to her parents, people at school, her church..... she has been told that "it's only a clump of cells" (maybe even "until whatever number of weeks") so it's not really "killing a baby".
She believes that, and (unlike the example I gave) she goes to an abortion clinic and terminates the pregnancy.

Its tragic. What is to be gained by calling her "a baby killer"?

Why is such an extreme case relevant to the discussion? Life is not lived in extremes. There are plenty of examples of women who don't fit the description you gave above. Are they not baby killers?

Is that just some debate tactic to.... what?

To what end are you wanting girls to be accused of "baby killing"?

I don't want young girls to be accused of baby killing. Geez, I'm not a monster.

Now would you kindly stop special pleading and stop avoiding my question. If the answer is that no women who get abortions can be described as baby killers just say so.

[Cow Poke]

No, the goal is not to win points against you.

So, what is it?

Why is such an extreme case relevant to the discussion? Life is not lived in extremes. There are plenty of examples of women who don't fit the description you gave above. Are they not baby killers?

You cast an unreasonably wide net in your OP... I'm showing you there are exceptions. From the "extreme" to many other situations.

I don't want young girls to be accused of baby killing. Geez, I'm not a monster.

I didn't think so, so maybe you could state the objective of this exercise?

Now would you kindly stop special pleading and stop avoiding my question. If the answer is that no women who get abortions can be described as baby killers just say so.

Apparently, the only acceptable answer to you would be "yes, they are baby killers".

It's just not that simple.

[Cow Poke]

It is widely stated that "abortion is murder." Are those who have gotten abortions murderers? Should they not be similarly shunned?

If they are not murderers could they not be accurately described as baby killers?

OK, let's cut to the chase....

It APPEARS that the purpose this post was a very poor attempt to 'prove' that pro-life people are hypocrites because we call abortionists "baby killers", but we don't do that to girls in trouble.

[Sparko]

OK, let's cut to the chase....

It APPEARS that the purpose this post was a very poor attempt to 'prove' that pro-life people are hypocrites because we call abortionists "baby killers", but we don't do that to girls in trouble.

His troll didn't work so he is trying to manipulate you into giving him the answer he was fishing for in the OP.

[Cow Poke]

His troll didn't work so he is trying to manipulate you into giving him the answer he was fishing for in the OP.

I see'd it from the start.

[Bill the Cat]

A zygote isn't a baby. It really really really isn't.

Yes it really, really is. No pregnant woman says "I have a zygote in there." Most pre-natal medical information on the web calls it a baby. Heck, my 25 year old is still my baby.

An acorn aint a tree, either.

Because acorn and tree are analogous to zygote and adult.

[Cow Poke]

Because acorn and tree are analogous to zygote and adult.

Bullfrogs and Butterflies, they've both been born again.....

[lilpixieofterror]

A zygote isn't a baby. It really really really isn't.

An acorn aint a tree, either.