"Abortion is murder"

[Christianbookworm]

Here's a video explaining how babies grow in their mommies' tummies that might be on Jiml's level.

[DivineOb]

For the abortionist, absolutely, He or she is the one who terminated the living being.
For the abortionist, I can't think of any scenario where that would not be a proper description.

So we're going to special plead why a doctor is uniquely responsible and a patient uniquely blameless for this singular medical decision?

[Christianbookworm]

There are unfortunately people who think if something is legal then it must be morally okay. It's a case by case thing. If a woman was bragging that she aborted her baby because the kid was inconvenient and she wanted to go on a cruise around the due date, that would reflect poorly on her. If a desperate teen is being coerced to have an abortion or she'll get kicked out of the house and her boyfriend will break up with her, she has a horrible "support" system.

[DivineOb]

There are unfortunately people who think if something is legal then it must be morally okay. It's a case by case thing. If a woman was bragging that she aborted her baby because the kid was inconvenient and she wanted to go on a cruise around the due date, that would reflect poorly on her. If a desperate teen is being coerced to have an abortion or she'll get kicked out of the house and her boyfriend will break up with her, she has a horrible "support" system.

No one but a child thinks "legal = morally ok, illegal = morally abhorrent."

Perhaps you'd like to answer my question about why "baby killer" shouldn't apply?

[Cow Poke]

So we're going to special plead why a doctor is uniquely responsible and a patient uniquely blameless for this singular medical decision?

Got an early morning, DO -- I'll see ya tomorrow.

[JimL]

Well, the pictures in the human development book show the zygote growing up into an embryo and the embryo growing up imto a fetus

Yeah, thanks, so at what point does it become a living human being, and what are you basing that on?

And abortions aren't performed pn zygptes.

Not my point. I was being sarcastic. The point is what is CP talking about, the clinic is informing the mere girls of what? That the fetus begins to have human features? that the autonomic electrical system of the heart initiates it's beginning to beat? That the fetus begins to move? None of that tells us that the fetus is a human person. When we consider a human being to be dead, it is when brain activity ceases. The brain activity of the fetus doesn't begin until 25 weeks. So if you're going by brain activity the fetus isn't a living human being until the 5th month. I understand you believe the fetus to be a living human being, well, I assume you believe it to be a living human being at conception, but that's your opinion, and science is ambiguous on the matter, so why should the pregnant women have to listen to you, and your opinion rather than making that decision for themselves.

By the time a woman finds out she is pregnant (about 5 weeks gestation), the heart is already beating. So, go jump in a lake you silly donkey.

As noted above, the heart beats due to the hearts own electical system, the brain activity doesn't begin until the 25th week.

[Cow Poke]

So we're going to special plead why a doctor is uniquely responsible and a patient uniquely blameless for this singular medical decision?

OK, got lots of stuff taken care of this morning, so....

I really don't understand why you're making this so hard.

You're simply wanting me to say "women who have an abortion are baby killers"?
Is that it?
So you can win points or something?

Here's the problem with that --- you started off with "murder".
Murder is the unlawful taking of a human being.
You were asking.... well, let's repost the OP......

It is widely stated that "abortion is murder." Are those who have gotten abortions murderers? Should they not be similarly shunned?

If they are not murderers could they not be accurately described as baby killers?

Here's the first problem --- a young uninformed girl (two weeks ago, I sat with a 14 year old pregnant girl, along with my Nurse daughter) is scared to death because she's pregnant, and knows that soon it will become evident to her parents, people at school, her church..... she has been told that "it's only a clump of cells" (maybe even "until whatever number of weeks") so it's not really "killing a baby".
She believes that, and (unlike the example I gave) she goes to an abortion clinic and terminates the pregnancy.

Its tragic. What is to be gained by calling her "a baby killer"?

Is that just some debate tactic to.... what?

To what end are you wanting girls to be accused of "baby killing"?

[Sparko]

OK, got lots of stuff taken care of this morning, so....

I really don't understand why you're making this so hard.

You're simply wanting me to say "women who have an abortion are baby killers"?
Is that it?
So you can win points or something?

Here's the problem with that --- you started off with "murder".
Murder is the unlawful taking of a human being.
You were asking.... well, let's repost the OP......

Here's the first problem --- a young uninformed girl (two weeks ago, I sat with a 14 year old pregnant girl, along with my Nurse daughter) is scared to death because she's pregnant, and knows that soon it will become evident to her parents, people at school, her church..... she has been told that "it's only a clump of cells" (maybe even "until whatever number of weeks") so it's not really "killing a baby".
She believes that, and (unlike the example I gave) she goes to an abortion clinic and terminates the pregnancy.

Its tragic. What is to be gained by calling her "a baby killer"?

Is that just some debate tactic to.... what?

To what end are you wanting girls to be accused of "baby killing"?

Maybe he wants you to blame them and call them baby killers so he can then say what a bad person you are for doing so. I can see his Gretchen impersonation now... "how DARE you?"

You know more than I do about the women at such clinics, I have only protested from "afar" - but I will bite the bullet and say I think the women who have abortions and are just more interested in turning a blind eye to the facts out of convenience are guilty of killing their babies. I would call those women "baby killers" - the loud feminists who are proud of their abortions and fight to support their rights to kill their babies.

[Cow Poke]

Maybe he wants you to blame them and call them baby killers so he can then say what a bad person you are for doing so.

That appears to be the object of this exercise, but waiting for him to tell me otherwise.

I can see his Gretchen impersonation now... "how DARE you?"

I'm still pretty "Gretchen ignorant" as I really don't know much about her.

You know more than I do about the women at such clinics, I have only protested from "afar" - but I will bite the bullet and say I think the women who have abortions and are just more interested in turning a blind eye to the facts out of convenience are guilty of killing their babies.

In some cases, I believe they honestly bought the whole "just a clump of cells" lie, but, yeah, they would WANT to believe that.
In other cases, yeah, I think they just pretend to buy the "clump of cells" argument in order to absolve themselves from guilt. (that seldom works)
In MOST cases (in my association with our clinic) the person, once presented with "the other side" of the "clump of cells" makes the decision NOT to abort, because they can no longer believe the lie.

I would call those women "baby killers" - the loud feminists who are proud of their abortions and fight to support their rights to kill their babies.

Sure.

I think I've given this illustration before.

My wife and I were teaching a "college and careers" class many years ago. Toward the end of the class, one of the young girls asked if abortion was a sin.
We were right at the end of class, so I said, "that's an important topic, and I don't want to get started on that and then have to quit, so let's pick that up another time".

As the students were leaving, she lingered, and my wife and I encouraged her to sit down.

We asked her to repeat her question, and she asked, again, "is abortion a sin"?

I really wanted to go into my clinical black-and-white speech about how it's murder, but I felt the Holy Spirit prompting me to be more gentle.
I remember emphasizing the forgiveness part - where, if one is dealing with guilt, just like any other sin, if they are truly sorry, God can forgive.

She began to sob, and blurted out "I had an abortion last summer and I feel SO terrible". My wife hugged her, we prayed for her, she was very remorseful and asked for forgiveness.

But, yeah, I could have said, "You BABY KILLER, you!"

segunda oportunidad

[Cow Poke]

So, when you show the mere girls a picture of a newly fertilized egg, they come to realize that it's a human being.

I keep thinking about what an absolute moronic stupid bird-brained cold-hearted IGNORANT statement this is.

Nobody shows them "a picture of a newly fertilized egg". It's an actual counseling session with a trained medical professional who will typically show them a sonogram of their living growing baby growing inside them, often the baby appearing to be sucking his/her thumb, or stretching....

I am so glad you're arguing for the other side. Sometimes you just outdo yourself with STUPID.

[JimL]

I keep thinking about what an absolute moronic stupid bird-brained cold-hearted IGNORANT statement this is.

Nobody shows them "a picture of a newly fertilized egg". It's an actual counseling session with a trained medical professional who will typically show them a sonogram of their living growing baby growing inside them, often the baby appearing to be sucking his/her thumb, or stretching....

I am so glad you're arguing for the other side. Sometimes you just outdo yourself with STUPID.

Yes, I'm well aware of what you do, CP. But thanks for the update.

[Cow Poke]

Yes, I'm well aware of what you do, CP.

Ah, so when you said...

So, when you show the mere girls a picture of a newly fertilized egg, they come to realize that it's a human being.

That was just rank dishonesty on your part? Some kind of sick joke? Purposely being a male donkey?

But thanks for the update.

You bet. We can always count on you to say really really stupid stuff.
But, STILL, if your mommy had come to a clinic for an abortion, we would have done our best to dissuade her, even if we knew YOU would be the 'product'.

[Leonhard]

The question I originally asked is whether it was appropriate to describe such a woman as a "baby killer." That remains my question. The legality of the procedure has no bearing on whether that is an accurate term to use.

I answered you on that.

It is widely stated that "abortion is murder."

Abortion is murder.

Are those who have gotten abortions murderers?

Most of them didn't see what they were doing as murder, almost all of them were motivated by what they experienced as dire circumstances.

Should they not be similarly shunned?

I don't think murderers should be shunned. I believe they should be punished appropriately according to what they did in the context of their time. We do this for many reasons, first and foremost to preserve order in society, secondly to uphold justice and finally we also seek the reform of someone.

If abortion was ever to be made fully illegal, I do not think we should retroactively punish those who had an abortion or those who carried them out. In an ideal world we would probably do what was done at the end of Apartheid, where a commission was put down to record all the stories. We'd focus our energy on the beliefs and systems that allowed abortion to be institutionalized in society. Perhaps even correct some wrongs that caused people to be motivated to seek it out to begin with.

If they are not murderers could they not be accurately described as baby killers?

A fetus technically speaking isn't a baby. A slur like this would not be completely inaccurate, but I don't think it is useful.

[Sparko]

That appears to be the object of this exercise, but waiting for him to tell me otherwise.



I'm still pretty "Gretchen ignorant" as I really don't know much about her.



In some cases, I believe they honestly bought the whole "just a clump of cells" lie, but, yeah, they would WANT to believe that.
In other cases, yeah, I think they just pretend to buy the "clump of cells" argument in order to absolve themselves from guilt. (that seldom works)
In MOST cases (in my association with our clinic) the person, once presented with "the other side" of the "clump of cells" makes the decision NOT to abort, because they can no longer believe the lie.



Sure.

I think I've given this illustration before.

My wife and I were teaching a "college and careers" class many years ago. Toward the end of the class, one of the young girls asked if abortion was a sin.
We were right at the end of class, so I said, "that's an important topic, and I don't want to get started on that and then have to quit, so let's pick that up another time".

As the students were leaving, she lingered, and my wife and I encouraged her to sit down.

We asked her to repeat her question, and she asked, again, "is abortion a sin"?

I really wanted to go into my clinical black-and-white speech about how it's murder, but I felt the Holy Spirit prompting me to be more gentle.
I remember emphasizing the forgiveness part - where, if one is dealing with guilt, just like any other sin, if they are truly sorry, God can forgive.

She began to sob, and blurted out "I had an abortion last summer and I feel SO terrible". My wife hugged her, we prayed for her, she was very remorseful and asked for forgiveness.

But, yeah, I could have said, "You BABY KILLER, you!"

segunda oportunidad

She was a victim of the lies.

[Cow Poke]

She was a victim of the lies.

EGGzackly --- same as my example where somebody was convinced that the "person" behind the screen was not an actual living human being.
If somebody shoots at a screen, NOT believing it's a human being, being ASSURED it was not a human being, no court in the land would convict that person of murder.
He was a victim of lies.