Evangelicals full of fear

[oxmixmudd]

This is a steaming pile of horsie poo. It is your root of bitterness that causes that perception, Jim, along with your incredibly thin skin.



You do that on occasion, too, while spewing forth hatred and disdain - hence, the "root of bitterness". You hate Trump, and anybody who doesn't also hate Trump.



And your root of bitterness blinds you from the fact that you're doing the very same thing you hypocritically accuse others of.

See, even here you are simply wrong about what motivates me and what I do. I talk about what you've done. The actual insults and hateful things you have said. As often as to others as to myself.

You talk about your presumptions about why I've said things you dont like. You have characterized me raising objections to clear moral violations, or actions that deny clear scientific or medical realities by the White House as 'hating Trump', and you have characterized me calling out the moral compromises of supporting trump in his immoral acts as 'demanding others hate Trump'

Is there any way to get you to see just how base and petty you have become? Any way for you to stop trying to cast aspersions on me for calling for high standards and move you towards cleaning up whatever elements of my observations might have a basis in fact and reality?

Let's suppose I'm the more evil and you are the more good, but some of the things i've pointed out are real and true. What do you have to lose by acknowledging them and trying to become even better?

[Cow Poke]

See, even here you are simply wrong....

Yeah, yeah, yeah.... everybody else is wrong, Ox is the only one right. I got that.

[Mountain Man]

MM, you are demonstrating my point right here in the very first sentence. The basics of scientific knowledge do not rest with opinion, but with a set of objective methods and procedures and principles of analysis. The fact the world is warmer now than 100 years ago, the fact the co2 in the atmosphere is rising and higher than any other time in human history, the fact human activity is generating all that extra co2, these are not opinions, they are measured data and facts. What I am talking about goes way beyond a mere lack of knowledge or even just legitimate uncertainty that goes with the iterative nature of scientific research and learning. We are talking about a culture steeped in the denial of some of the most basic facts that have emerged from years of study and careful application of those same scientific principles. In a way that is destructive to ourselves and the credibility of the Gospel itself.



The difference, again, lies between the belief in that which is provably false, the denial of that which can be demonstrated, and the belief in that which is hopeful but unprovable. The difference between ignoring a spouse's infidelity even holding pictures of that same spouse naked in bed with another, and believing in an otherwise faithful spouse when they are away on a business trip.

Both of the above can be lauded or criticized under the generic banner of 'faith'. But the former is a very unhealthy case of denial, whereas the latter is necessary for and a typical response to a successful marriage.



MM - the question here is why you find it so improbable that my motivation is nothing more complicated than a devotion to truth and honesty. So much so that you must invent or impose other more nefarious motivations when they don't exist.




Unfortunately, being committed to the truth means being subject to it as well. To the extent Fea's words have distorted the Truth, you are justified in perceiving them as an attack. But to the extent Fea's words are True, then it is our responsibilty to acknowkedge them and work to remedy them first in ourselves, and then in the community where we have influence. And the most difficult thing there is is to objectively parse what is true in a statement that cuts at some real flaw in who we are.

But in the end, that is my motivation MM. To do what I can to remedy this burgeoning problem within the communities where I have some influence. Recognizing that the first step to solving any problem is to admit the problem exists.

What a load of self-righteous tripe.

[Cow Poke]

Fea noted that the American Bible Society shifted it mission statement about twenty years ago, a mission statement which excludes those who deny the virgin birth. But from what I have read Fea does not deny creedal Christianity. As an historian he was entirely within his scope to note the change in direction of the group, in fact he would have been remiss.

Are you referring to that?

More on his emphasis that the American Bible Society was focusing on an affirmation of the definition of "family" (which is consistent with scriptural teaching) and, according to Fea, causing "many" (without attempting to justify "many") persons to leave their employ because they were actively engaged in alternate lifestyles.

I know elsewhere he has broken with evangelicalism's mainstream for its emphasis on supply side of abortions and empty posturing, rather than addressing the demand side. On that point I agree with him. But that in no way means he is "pro-abortion" or "pro-death". (he disagrees with the strategy of overturning Roe v. Wade without addressing the reasons women seek abortions)

So, claiming he's an "Evangelical", and admitting "he has broken with evangelicalism's mainstream" (as you put it) isn't problematic for you? I'm betting not in the least.

[simplicio]

More on his emphasis that the American Bible Society was focusing on an affirmation of the definition of "family" (which is consistent with scriptural teaching) and, according to Fea, causing "many" (without attempting to justify "many") persons to leave their employ because they were actively engaged in alternate lifestyles.



So, claiming he's an "Evangelical", and admitting "he has broken with evangelicalism's mainstream" (as you put it) isn't problematic for you? I'm betting not in the least.

No, it is not problematic for me at all. Mainstream evangelicalism has become a religio-political movement. He has broken with mainstream evangelicalism over the political strategy chosen. The fact that mainstream evangelicalism confuses that with being pro-death, pro abort, shows just how mainstream evangelicalism elevates political posturing over actual abortion.

The fact is that it is not at all problematic for you that differences in prudential political judgements become more important than the ideas held.

I have seen nothing which shows that Fea is pro abortion.

The American Bible Society change in focus did cause many to leave the employ because they engaged in alternative lifestyles.

[Cow Poke]

No, it is not problematic for me at all. Mainstream evangelicalism has become a religio-political movement. He has broken with mainstream evangelicalism over the political strategy chosen. The fact that mainstream evangelicalism confuses that with being pro-death, pro abort, shows just how mainstream evangelicalism elevates political posturing over actual abortion.

The fact is that it is not at all problematic for you that differences in prudential political judgements become more important than the ideas held.

I have seen nothing which shows that Fea is pro abortion.

The American Bible Society change in focus did cause many to leave the employ because they engaged in alternative lifestyles.

So, you're making my point that he's not an "Evangelical" after all.

Thank you!

[Cow Poke]

I have seen nothing which shows that Fea is pro abortion.

Can you show me where I said that, please?

[Charles]

"What's striking here is that evangelicals have in almost every circumstance where there's some kind of change in the culture, have not responded with hospitality to the stranger, with grace, with hope, with the idea that people who are different from them have been created in the image of God and have that dignity and worth. Instead they have built their walls and protected themselves against people they fear Fear. [It's] an inherent contradiction for anyone who takes the Bible seriously. That's what I'm trying to call people to think about in this book. Why are we so afraid? We love to claim a big God who controls everything and will work out his purposes for good as it says in Romans. Their politics is driven by fear much more than any kind hope."

You would think it was a joke that Christians would spend post after post after post trying to find their way to not have to deal with such a statement instead of simply promoting it. The statement is certainly not challenging to Christianity. Quite the opposite.

[oxmixmudd]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.... everybody else is wrong, Ox is the only one right. I got that.

When it comes to speculating about my motives, I am the one most qualified to know. So yes, you are wrong about my motives, as is anyone that thinks you are right about my motives

In fact, you've spent a large number of posts demanding others not make such judgements about yourself. Why you suppose you can know my motivations but no-one, including me, could possibly know yours perhaps is a question you might ask yourself

[Mountain Man]

You still haven't given us any reason to suppose that Fea's opinions are necessarily correct.

[Charles]

You still haven't given us any reason to suppose that Fea's opinions are necessarily correct.

Yet another post focusing on the person and not what he says. Thanks for proving the point.

[Cow Poke]

Yet another post focusing on the person and not what he says. Thanks for proving the point.

No, Charles, he was asking you a question relative to your OP = on point, not a personal attack. Perhaps you could actually answer his question?

[Mountain Man]

Yet another post focusing on the person and not what he says. Thanks for proving the point.

My remark was about his opinion, you dope. He has an opinion that you happen to think is correct, but you have not given us any compelling reason to think the same.

[Cow Poke]

When it comes to speculating about my motives, I am the one most qualified to know.

I'm sure a person suffering from any number of mental disorders could make the same claim, Jim.

So yes, you are wrong about my motives, as is anyone that thinks you are right about my motives

I don't think it's so much "motives" as outcome -- I'd assume were motives were genuine.

In fact, you've spent a large number of posts demanding others not make such judgements about yourself.

Can you provide just ONE, please? Because I don't believe I've made any such demands -- just observations, understanding from whence these goofy attacks come.

Why you suppose you can know my motivations but no-one, including me, could possibly know yours perhaps is a question you might ask yourself

I believe your intentions are good, but I do believe you have demonstrated quite a bit of hostility toward Trump and anybody who doesn't absolutely denounce him.

So, your best example of me "demanding others not make such judgements about [myself]", please.

[Mountain Man]

I believe your intentions are good...

The question is, what road are they paving?