Pence and the Chicoms.

[simplicio]

You're being the dumbass, Sparko. Trump was not open, he downplayed the seriousness of the situation from the get go, and refused the W.H.O.'s testing kits which only worsened the situation, saying that it wasn't that serious, that like a miracle it would just disappear by April and that the dems were just out to get him by hyping it and criticizing his handling of it, calling that critique a democrat/MSM hoax. What ever his motives for downplaying the situation were, he did it, he was wrong, and now he finally seems to understand that.

So far, so good.

I'm guessing that you all better understand that now as well.

Wow. Seriously?

[Sparko]

I think this thread is moot now, he was not able to control the flow of info through the White House. The medical community put their foot down.

I wonder why Science wrote this article? I know, They're all Dems and want to discredit Trump so they set aside any pretense of using science! (probably all Freemasons too)

https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...6483/1169.full

it's an editorial. commentary.

[simplicio]

it's an editorial. commentary.

Yes. But it brings up valid points.

[JimL]

So far, so good.



Wow. Seriously?

I don't think that anyone can still be as ignorant about the seriousness of this situation as they project themselves to be. I think they are members of the tribe and just can't admit they were wrong and that their dear leader is a screw up.

[simplicio]

I don't think that anyone can still be as ignorant about the seriousness of this situation as they project themselves to be. I think they are members of the tribe and just can't admit they were wrong and that their dear leader is a screw up.

But do they "understand it now"? I honestly think they don't, there is a complete separation of reason from political (and religious) discourse. If the media presents any real information it is condemned as hoax, then hatin' on Trump, then needlessly panicking....

Is there any action by Trump which is not excused? The example is conspiracy thinking, where the application of reason is not possible.

Added in edit: One example: the poll which showed a couple weeks ago 70 some % Republicans recognized this novel coronavirus as a threat, now it is down to 40%. And this is after more evidence that it is a threat. Which is why I think they are not aware.

Hate to admit it, either Biden (or Sanders-eeeek!) will be the next President if the death toll is high. Dems will run clips of Trump's pronouncements on coronavirus in an endless loop until election day

[JimL]

But do they "understand it now"? I honestly think they don't, there is a complete separation of reason from political (and religious) discourse. If the media presents any real information it is condemned as hoax, then hatin' on Trump, then needlessly panicking....

Is there any action by Trump which is not excused? The example is conspiracy thinking, where the application of reason is not possible.

Hard to say for sure, you may be right, I just find it difficult to believe that anyone living in this enviroment can honestly remain ignorant as to the seriousness of this pandemic. Even the bubble they live in is being penetrated by the facts. I think they are in denial, but deep down most of them know the truth now, they're just being pig headed and can't get themselves to admit to have been in the wrong.

[Sparko]

Yes. But it brings up valid points.

You brought up as some sort of scientific condemnation of Trump. It was an editorial by a single person.

Look I agree Trump should just stop trying to answer technical/medical questions because he obviously isn't an expert on this, so he says things that are wrong. But so does every other politician who has been pontificating on this. That doesn't equate to some conspiracy to hide facts or mislead the public.

[JimL]

You brought up as some sort of scientific condemnation of Trump. It was an editorial by a single person.

Look I agree Trump should just stop trying to answer technical/medical questions because he obviously isn't an expert on this, so he says things that are wrong. But so does every other politician who has been pontificating on this. That doesn't equate to some conspiracy to hide facts or mislead the public.

Trump shouldn't be voicing his personal opinion if he has no idea what he's talking about and for that reason misleading the American people. Whether it's a conspiracy to hide the facts, or just plain ignorance on his part, he should shut his pie hole and let the professionals do the messaging. That's what the professionals that Presidents surround themselves with are for, either to inform him of the facts so that he can convey them to the people, or to convey that message themselves.

[simplicio]

You brought up as some sort of scientific condemnation of Trump. It was an editorial by a single person.

Look I agree Trump should just stop trying to answer technical/medical questions because he obviously isn't an expert on this, so he says things that are wrong. But so does every other politician who has been pontificating on this. That doesn't equate to some conspiracy to hide facts or mislead the public.

Trump's natural instinct for science has not served the country well. Maybe this is the first time the Trumpian formulas don't work to Trump's advantage, you can't litigate a virus, bully it to make it back away.

I am not talking about explanations, all across the world now we see politicians making statement that send science teachers laughing. But it is about instituting policies and procedures, something that all world leaders have advisers for, professionals with scientific expertise. So even the leaders who are revealing a lack of understanding of the science are heeding the advice of those who do understand science. While we rightfully condemn China for some of its actions on this epidemic, this administration's impulse has been similar to the Chicoms.

While scientists are trying to share facts about the epidemic, the administration either blocks those facts or restates them with contradictions. Transmission rates and death rates are not measurements that can be changed with will and an extroverted presentation. The administration has repeatedly said—as it did last week—that virus spread in the United States is contained, when it is clear from genomic evidence that community spread is occurring in Washington state and beyond. That kind of distortion and denial is dangerous and almost certainly contributed to the federal government's sluggish response. After 3 years of debating whether the words of this administration matter, the words are now clearly a matter of life and death.

I underlined the phrase about the sluggish response. Fauci and Azar need to deal with the political reality of a leader who reacts viscerally to perceived disloyalty, with disloyalty defined as disagree with The Donald, and being pushed aside. The question of Trump's leadership style having an effect on the response is probably unresolvable.

I initially disagreed with the criticism that Trump's dismantling of the administration's pandemic response unit affected the response, since the expertise also resides in other areas of government bureaucracy. But it is apparent that the experts had little input. Maybe another layer of bureaucracy is needed, a White House office for pandemic response.

[simplicio]

Hard to say for sure, you may be right, I just find it difficult to believe that anyone living in this enviroment can honestly remain ignorant as to the seriousness of this pandemic. Even the bubble they live in is being penetrated by the facts. I think they are in denial, but deep down most of them know the truth now, they're just being pig headed and can't get themselves to admit to have been in the wrong.

I admit I can't wrap my mind around the polling numbers: among Trumpians, 76% saw this as a real threat in Feb., now 40% do. This is after a mountain of evidence has hit us, I tried to find polling stats for other countries. I doubt that it is unrelated to Trump's rhetoric. The only explanation I can think of is the description of conspiracy thinking as applying here.(not conspiracy, but the thinking which accepts it).

I started out as an optimist, I recently added more money into the stock market, thinking it can't be so bad over the long haul for business. Heh!

[Sparko]

Trump shouldn't be voicing his personal opinion if he has no idea what he's talking about and for that reason misleading the American people. Whether it's a conspiracy to hide the facts, or just plain ignorance on his part, he should shut his pie hole and let the professionals do the messaging. That's what the professionals that Presidents surround themselves with are for, either to inform him of the facts so that he can convey them to the people, or to convey that message themselves.

Tell that to every other politician and media pundit too.

[simplicio]

Tell that to every other politician and media pundit too.

How many pundits were downplaying the epidemic's potential? (actually some were following Trump's lead)

[Sparko]

How many pundits were downplaying the epidemic's potential? (actually some were following Trump's lead)

I was talking about misinformation and not having any scientific knowledge. Heck I would add most of the internet into that group too. Including JimL. Maybe he should take his own advice: He "shouldn't be voicing his personal opinion if he has no idea what he's talking about"

[JimL]

I was talking about misinformation and not having any scientific knowledge. Heck I would add most of the internet into that group too. Including JimL. Maybe he should take his own advice: He "shouldn't be voicing his personal opinion if he has no idea what he's talking about"

Trump is the President. You don't lead a people by lying or spreading misinformation about a situation, or by substituting your personal opinions in place of science, or in place of the professionals in the field who would know better. Trump, whether purposely or not, mislead the public by downplaying the situation which only exacerbated an already bad situation. He finally came around and acknowledged the seriousness of the situation, but he wasted valuable time at the outset by trying to downplay it. People should have understood the seriousness of the danger a month or more ago, should have taken the precautions that they are now taking a month or more ago. Containing the spread of the virus is the ultimate objective both to protect the people and the economy. Trump, by lying, by downplaying it's seriousness, by not acting immediatly, allowed the virus to spread faster, and may have aided the occurence of the worst economic crash in the history of the U.S..

[simplicio]

Trump is the President. You don't lead a people by lying or spreading misinformation about a situation, or by substituting your personal opinions in place of science, or in place of the professionals in the field who would know better. Trump, whether purposely or not, mislead the public by downplaying the situation which only exacerbated an already bad situation. He finally came around and acknowledged the seriousness of the situation, but he wasted valuable time at the outset by trying to downplay it. People should have understood the seriousness of the danger a month or more ago, should have taken the precautions that they are now taking a month or more ago. Containing the spread of the virus is the ultimate objective both to protect the people and the economy. Trump, by lying, by downplaying it's seriousness, by not acting immediatly, allowed the virus to spread faster, and may have aided the occurence of the worst economic crash in the history of the U.S..

What, are you nuts? Since when is containing the spread an ultimate objective?

Senator Richard Burr in an interesting example of the swamp which ought to be drained. (remember when that was a rallying cry?)

He sold of 1.7 million in stock at a time he was reassuring the public, and giving private consultation to "well connected" constituents (I am sure that it is coincidence that those constituents are also generous donors) that hard times were coming.

Burr was also privy to the Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Act, which guides the government actions in a crisis such as this. So while the President was downplaying this as a dem hoax, and boasting of his excellent, excellent preparedness actions, trusting in his scientific hunches and acumen, Burr was making a small fortune on this, telling the public one thing, while privately warning well connected something different.

So much for government transparency. If containment was an ultimate objective, Burr would have dared to buck the political pressures, and stepped into the deep,duc in altem. (a religious reference) But there was money to be made, cold hard cash.